23.10.11

Capitalism: Unfit for civilized societies

The Paradox of the New Elite
By ALEXANDER STILLE
In economic terms, the United States has gone from being a comparatively egalitarian society to one of the most unequal democracies in the world.

_______________________________________


L.R.
Upstate New York

The U.S. has seen extreme economic stratification before; the Gilded Age of the Robber Barons still resonates across the decades. What has happened is that the forces that used to oppose wealth have largely abandoned the field, in part because of success, in part because of a shift in priorities, in part because of other conflicts.

To make a long comment short, the Democratic Party stopped fighting for economic justice in favor of social justice, and ended up selling out to the business community. For example, we now have a Democratic governor in New York State who is attacking state employee unions for having too much, while defending the right of millionaires to have even more - but he supports same sex marriage for rich and poor alike.

The full legacy of Martin Luther King has been forgotten. While everyone is aware of his leadership in fighting racial inequality, few know that he had come to see that economic inequality was as great a problem. At the time of his assassination, he was shifting his efforts to fight poverty as well as racism. It is ironic that King was rejected by many unions because of racism among union members, one of the things that led many of them to turn to Nixon and then Reagan in reaction to a Democratic Party that was spending their tax money on - in their opinion - undeserving minorities, and giving them special preferences.

This has pretty much given the forces driving inequality free rein over the last 30 years. The Republican Party has never had any problem accommodating racism or economic injustice; the party thrives on division. The break down of the labor - Democratic alliance, the destruction of unions in America, and the growing symbiosis between Wall Street and the Democratic Party Leadership has further accelerated the trend.

Inequality comes at a high price. Wilkinson and Pickett detail in the book "The Spirit Level" how it corrodes the quality of life for rich and poor alike in ways beyond money - is anyone listening?



anne
New York City
It's the old divide-and-conquer. White men who see women, immigrants and minorities becoming successful become resentful toward egalitarianism. They retreat to a fantasy identificiation with the white men who are members of the economic elite. The elite channels the anger of white men toward immigrants through psychologically sophisticated propaganda that makes them think it is the immigrants, not the Wall Street bankers, who are destroying their lifestyle and sense of identity. This is changing slowly, however, as the job prospects for college-educated white men have plummeted. A successful revolution in the United States needs white men, and the white men of the 99 per cent are waking up as they realize that even a middle-class life for them may be out of reach.




Barbara
New York
Economic inequality in the U.S. is exacerbated when then "elite" class, particularly those who control the banks, are permitted to gamble with citizens' money and not be held to accounts when their bets fail.

As Walker F. Todd, a research fellow at the American Institute for Economic Research and a former official at the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland, commented in a front-page NYT article today (Bank’s Collapse in Europe Points to Global Risks)regarding the possible collapse of the European banking giant, Dexia: “In the short run, it would help if the authorities would say they refuse to provide publicly funded money for the payoffs of derivatives,” he said. “This is like using public funds to support your local casino. It is difficult to see how this is good for society in the long run.”




Nathan an Expat
China
In many ways "inclusion" as discussed in this article (gender, race sexual orientation,etc...has) often serves as a specious bait and switch for the real issue of socio-economic class. Replacing the sons of the wealthy with the daughters of the rich will do little to address the growing gap between rich and poor. I remember clearly a conversation with a rich White South African on the eve of Mandela's triumph. A reporter was asking him what he would do if a Black South African bought the house beside him. He replied looking over the well groomed hedges and expanses of closely clipped grass, "If he can afford that house I think we'll get along just fine". And they do -- all over the world with the Ivies and similar educational systems providing a fig lead of "certification" for the laughable argument the system is somehow a meritocracy as opposed to a corrupt inbred favors trading plutocracy that takes care of its own. (How many US President's children are now working for hedgefunds? How many senior government officials rotate out of investment banks?) Oh, one last anecdote a Yale admissions officer spoke of their concept of a "well rounded" candidate being one who could "roll all the way from New Haven to Wall Street".




Marv Raps
New York City
Excellent article. However, the assumption that the super rich earned their wealth and have an inalianable right to keep it needs to be challenged. Those who captured a percentage of a nations wealth that would have made the aristocracy of the 19th Century envious did not earn it through hard work, creativity and innovation. Few, if any, are inventors of great industries and even if they were, they would have relied on legions of inventors, innovators and laborers who paved the way for their success. Others relied on their wealth to capture greater wealth. Money does not earn money, it can merely capture it. Until we rethink the way wealth is captured and the way workers are denied the full fruit of their labor, the stratification of society will continue to get more unequal and social mobility, less common.



petevanpelt
Leesburg, Florida
Inclusion of minorities is probably a consequence of federal laws originating from the slavery issue and not from any humanity emanating from the people, at least in the south. I am from the deep south and believe me when I tell you that old perverse attitudes still prevail.
Concentration of wealth, however, and the elitism which naturally accompanies it is a direct consequence of capitalism. In but a few hundred years, capitalism has changed the typical person from one who took great pride in his work, who valued the work ethic, and realized that work itself is what makes people happy, to a person who values money and possessions above character, and appearance above substance. We have morphed into a vain and superficial society.
It seems that superficial and vain people also have less respect for the truth. The majority of presidents since Hoover have been caught in lies, who knows how much deceit went unnoticed. The people themselves have been transformed to have less respect for the truth. The point being that the elitist tenet ‘giving truth to the people would be like throwing pearls to swine‘ is probably now true.
Capitalism has another quality rendering it unfit for civilized societies, it is a natural enemy of the Earth. It is simply cheaper, hence more profitable, to dump one’s manufacturing waste into the earth, sky, or ocean, than to dispose of it responsibly.



kallian publico
Brooklyn, NY
Hard work? Setting up a financial industry casino is hard work? Facebook is hard work? Porn sites? Are these the businesses of the future or are they the new churches of a mentality scornful of collective, social responsiblity because they thrive on vulnerable, individual uncertainty. Without morality collective approval and disapproval will not be forthcoming. The symptom of this inequality, alienation, is also the cause. The only way to overcome this problem will be through morality. Whoever Resets the boundaries of what is right and wrong gets to define what is "legal"(financial derivatives) and what is "criminal"(terrorists).



Ronald Cohen
Wilmington, North Carolina
The shifting balance of power in this nation is directly connected to the influence of money and benefit that is conferred on elected officials by the financially dominant that the pervasive appointment of financial insiders to government positions. To restore the balance that must (a) be term limits; (b) public electoral financing; (c) end to the revolving door; (d) overruling of Citizen United by Congress commonsensically defining a person as a biological entity not a legal fiction; (e) return to Glass-Stiegel.



WillT26
Durham, NC
The part that is even worse than the loss of opportunity is the quality of our 'elite.' Our 'elite' 'leaders' are incompetent, short-sighted and greedy. Having a system like ours might be palatable if the people at the top actually deserved their positions.



Andrew
Colesville, MD
There are at least two common misconceptions among the pundits. First, the economic inequality and second the consumption demand slump are the two root-causes of economic debacle. They are not. The root cause has nothing to do with these results of systematic breakdown due to internally inherent contradictions.

“It is the system, stupid!”

It is true that inequality is associated with any private-ownership system but with capitalism, the ruling class has systematically established the legitimated and justified inequality. Historical, educational, news media and cultural inculcations render egalitarianism a taboo or if not, a freeload-like concept or a socio-irony. Capital relies on taboos and cultural misconceptions for its supreme reign on people’s spiritual and intellectual lives, just as it sets up politics, ideology, law and order as well as civil society to rein in people’s political lives.

Capital-owners have never volunteered to confer on people egalitarianism without a struggle. The more people struggle against the system, the more they get concessions from the ruling class. When they failed to struggle, the obtained concessions became invalid almost at once. The class struggles and never subjective wishes decide the outcome. This socio-political rule applies equally well to race, gender, age, immigration, religion and cultural equalities.

The author seems to lean too much towards the disinterested and subjective willingness of an unnamed ruling class to understand correctly the socio-political conflicts the vast population faces today.

OWS protesters clearly understand better than pundits their class struggle can make much more difference than ballots that are not a match of the greased palms. Mass movements with democratic awakening are no longer isolated anti-capital democratic activities of the frontal battlegrounds such as the Arab countries; it has spread to vastly large rear areas of advanced or emerging capitalist countries.




BJW
Olympia, WA
I think, in fact, we have become a pseudo meritocracy. We are becoming more of an aristocracy where the privileged few can maintain their wealth from generation to generation through inheritance and their children get special treatment regardless of their academic achievement. Take George W. Bush, for example. Here was a mediocre student who gets into Yale because of his family name. With the demise of inheritance tax, compounded by economic stagnation, we've created a system that prevents social and economic mobility. Cronyism, nepotism, sycophantic behavior, and the like are the new norm in coporate and government culture. Arguably, the elite system perpetuates this condition since incompetent "leaders" like Bush now are the heads of of corporations And their dreadful decisions have destroyed the economy leaving only this aristocratic model in place. We are becoming a society like 19th century England without the glory of a monarchy.




professor
NC
Egalitarian? Equality?

This piece lacks a historical perspective and is inaccurate. This country was founded on inequality and that has remained the status quo! Rich, white male landowners pitted themselves against white indentured servants and African slaves to maintain economic, legal and political power. Very little has changed since then! The author is confusing the increased visibility of minorities and women with actual economic and political power. The truth is that the descendants of the white landowners comprise the 1% that own 80% of the wealth in this country. There still exists institutional discrimination which prevents low-income whites, women and minorities from acquiring real wealth in this country. There never has been equality and there never will be unless the class structure is exposed and fundamentally altered.




Stephen de las Heras
New York, NY
The left needs to take responsibility for their failings as well. Dividing everyone into groups by race, or gender, or sexuality really undermined the notion of caring about everyone's rights, and everyone's opportunities, and distracted people from the real issue: growing inequality. Togetherness and fairness were traded away for group identity and trying to leverage that identity into some sort advantage in the real world through diversity initiatives or quotas. The only liberals who ever had a real sense that this was a bad thing, to the extent that they didn't belong to a "group", were often sent to the back of the line, or portrayed as the bad guys, were white heterosexual men.


Lynne
Wisconsin

If by "egalitarian" the author means "fair," we as a country, society and culture have never been so. George Washington was the richest man in the United States. For all it's high falutin' language about liberty and equality, the Constitution is rather vague and subject to interpretation-some would say written largely in favor of property owners, of which there were only a handful in Washington's day. The American Revolution was about wealthy colonists wanting a larger share than King George allowed and a redirection of the fomenting, angry rebellion of the other 99%: white indentured poor, slaves and natives who were joining forces against American Colony elites holding all the cards.

The middle class is a lovely invention designed to give just enough comfort to just enough people. Sated, it provides a buffer for the 1% against rebellion of the angry poor, for whom the middle class life is held out as a carrot. With the decimation of workers rights and the loss of the rising tide, which in the past did "raise all boats," the angry poor becomes an ever increasing threat.

Nothing new under the sun.



Dwight Bobson
Washington DC
This discussion assumes the existence in the U.S. of ideals, i.e., a free market and capitalism. The U.S. could produce greater financial equality within limits of a person's ability if the ideals were not gamed and twisted in favor of the already wealthy, which to me means certain people are allowed to cheat. If a company buys (read: campaign contribution), via political favor, a loophole in a law that allows it be favored over relative equivalent competitors, it creates inequality. If the same is done with a regulation that allows what amount to corporate welfare (see: http://www.cato.org/corporate-welfare, it creates inequality. There is no apparent accountability applied to cheaters, be they members of congress or those who buy their influence from them. Laws and their enforcement need to be in place to have a chance at financial equality. What the GOP as a political arm of the wealthy, with the help of the Democrats who are willing to allow cheating for both those who tug at their heartstrings as well as the wealthy campaign contributors, endorse is the de-regulatory government that has been increasing. And this is not to excuse Clinton's repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act as proposed by influential GOP congressmen. In summary, the average American has been cheated, knowingly and deliberately, by their elected representatives. And you cannot talk about ideals of equality and justice without recognizing that power corrupts and wealth buys power and so it also buys corruption. That man is so corruptible is simply a fact of life in America where greed has the stamp of approval from such a large segment of the powerful, of the leadership and of the elected.




Richard Doczy
California
So what is wrong with being un-egalitarian? Nothing in nature is. Nor in athletics, nor in scholarship, nor in beauty, nor...well you should get it by now. Why should we all be equally poor or rich? Makes no sense and trying to make us so simply makes those who would arrange it far more powerful than the rest of us.



Tom
Little Silver, NJ
It is time to recognize that income inequality is a normal, natural result of increasing productivity, especially from technology. We live in a world where increasingly complex (and formerly labor-intensive) tasks can be performed by fewer and fewer people. The trend started during the Industrial Revolution, and has likely accelerated during the Technological Revolution of the past 20 years. The difference is that we didn't notice, or didn't care, when 20 uneducated farm laborers were replaced by a thresher or combine. But when 20 college-degreed accountants are replaced by a spreadsheet program, or 20 highly-skilled arc welders are replaced by a robot on an assembly line, we notice. All the wages that those displaced workers used to receive are going to naturally get redistributed upward to fewer, more technologically-skilled workers.

This is progress, and is natural. And it is beneficial to society. Instead if fighting it, we must learn to cope, and teach our children to cope, and prepare so that they are not left behind.

You want income equality? Ban the computer. Ban electricity while you're at it.






Teed Rockwell
CA
Response to Tom in NJ:

"This is progress, and is natural."

So is bubonic plague, and economic collapse caused by housing bubbles. That doesn't make it right or desirable.

"And it is beneficial to society."

Only if you define society as the Rich

"Instead if fighting it, we must learn to cope, and teach our children to cope, and prepare so that they are not left behind."

And how are we to do that when education is now so expensive that only the Rich can afford it?




Vincent Amato
New York City
The real problem is the notion that American exceptionalism is to be maintained at any price. When it became clear that European and Asian economies were trending toward greater prosperity as the devastation of WWII receded into the past, it appeared that economic policy makers made decisions that said to our own citizens and to the world at large, "we may no longer be able to provide the relative advantages to our workers and ascendant middle class that they acquired in the 1950s, but we will allow some Americans at least to acquire wealth unimaginable in any other country." The now highly vaunted 1% is, in effect, an American version of the Potemkin Village, a facade of highly tinseled wealth behind which the vast majority are left to make do the best they can on their own. This is not a byproduct of superior skills or the magic of capitalism for a handful, it is a matter of policy, of, in effect, subsidies to the richest Americans. We have been taught to believe that anything more equitable would create a grey, Scandinavian style socialist reality.


Colorado Going Blue
Colorado
Inequities are forgiven if success is achieved. Success has become based on our modern icons. Our social icons are given, largely, by the media. These icons are the rich and famous. Success is determined, somewhat by talent, but mostly by access to capital. Those who are the traditional gatekeepers of the capital are formidable in excluding those who are not cultivated in the knowledge, or the family, understanding how to access capital. No investment, no return, so to speak. But more brutish is that there are painfully few protections any longer to control how capital is raised at the elite level. Pillaging those without has become fair game. Hence the elite end of the pool is heading in an upward trajectory toward success at the logistical expense of those on the bottom being pushed further downward. There is no equality in a society which cannot create a government that can consistently protect those with less political power from those who hold it. There are no protections in America for being poor.

22.10.11

Calm down, everyone. We have no idea what's coming next

Qaddafi Is Dead
Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi was killed Thursday as fighters battling the vestiges of his fallen regime took control of his hometown of Surt after a prolonged struggle, the interim government said.

___________________________________

Anon
NY

Obama is a smart leader with sensible policies that are achieving tangible foreign policy results. The war in Afghanistan is his albatross, but nobody can question his strength as Commander in Chief. He has been strong, decisive and has delivered results in the nuanced way expected of a 21st Century leader.

Zero US casualties, lasting friendship from the Libyan people (who feel they own their revolution) and a $1.1 billion price tag (that's less than 3 days of Iraq operations at its peak run rate). By the end of the week, Republicans will have found a way to make this UNITED AMERICAN and NATO success turn into a negative against Obama.

Think for myself
Pasadena, Cal.

Perhaps those who awarded our president the Nobel peace prize knew that he possessed the sort of goodness and determination that would bring justice to world. If only the detractors here at home would allow President Obama an opportunity to better our situation here at home.


street professor
sydney, australia


Just shows what can be achieved when the US, Al Qaeda and NATO work together.

First thing is get that privatised Central Bank in place and start printing that fiat money. It's time those Libyans started paying income tax and high health care/education costs so they can get a taste of this democracy lifestyle.

And don't worry about your destroyed infrastructure, Western corporations will look after that, plenty of cash in the frozen funds to cover it. Now Libyans, get out in the streets and celebrate for the cameras.





GodBlessTheWorld
New York,NY


Cheap oil for the "first world"



Phil Greene
Houston, Texas

I am truly sorry and deeply ashamed of the US role it this. We the international rogue are a World Wide Horror Show with no credibility at all.



Daniel
Seattle

Those of you who think Gaddafi was responsible for the Lockerbie bombing should do more research. Gaddafi and Libya had nothing to do with it. And according to wikileaks, Gaddafi was, among North African leaders, the most modest and restrained as a leader.

We just destroyed a nation, and murdered a great leader who envisioned an Africa free from Western propaganda imperialism.




FOR
USA

NATO kills a president and the world cheers! No due process, no rule of law. Thugs in the streets killing black Libyans and they are in Power. Why on earth should any dictator then agree to give up power? or for that matter, abandon their insurance policy - Nuclear weapons???




Liam
Detroit

Muammar Gaddafi bravely removed an imperialist stooge (King Idris) from power, and transformed Libya from the world's poorest nation to the most developed in Africa. The system of direct democracy implemented by him in Libya beginning in 1977 may have been imperfect, but inspiring nonetheless. This is a man who helped shatter apartheid. Before Gaddafi's rise to power, 20% of the population was literate. Today, it's 88%, and essentially equal between males and females.

It is a shame to see him being portrayed as some tyrant or dictator, all the while an illegitimate and unpopular group of imperialist proxies are being called heroes. Hillary Clinton went to Tripoli and lectured about women's rights -- ignoring the fact that women in Libya are overwhelmingly pro-Gaddafi and there is not a single woman on the NTC.

They may have killed him, but Gaddafi lives in the heart of millions.


The Realist
New York

The American Imperialist Assassins at it again. The third world loves you, that is until they get the upper hand. What a victory! Qaddafi was no role model, but certainly a free spirited character with a flair for theatrics (look at our pathetic cast of leaders, they are losers too, however, with no style or taste). Billions of American dollars spent (wasted) in the name of Democracy and to silence any opposition party that we can't control. Wild West justice rules. Hang 'em high!!!!


Michael Kittle
Vaison la Romaine, France

DID OBAMA ASSASSINATE QADAFFI ALSO along with the two American citizens in Yemen?

How can you tell if your living in a dictatorship or a democracy? If your head of state wants to assassinate an enemy of the people, but the enemy gets arrested, charged, has an attorney and a trial, and is found guilty or innocent by a jury, you are probably living in a democracy.

If your head of state wants to assassinate an enemy of the people, signs a death warrant, and the enemy of the people is murdered by an unmanned drone weapon, then you are probably living in a dictatorship!


Joe
Santa Cruz, CA

What's the price tag for this hollow victory?

Gaddafi was bad guy no doubt, but will his death mean anything to anyone in this country? Another bridge not fixed, another student unable to afford college, another senior not able to afford medicine, and on and on it goes.

At what point will all the boogeymen be put down enough for the military-industrial complex in this country to be scaled back? For all it's accomplices in the government (R's & D's!) to quit using fear as a scapegoat for not fixing problems right here at home?

Mark me as glad he's gone, but tired of yet another meaningless victory salute when we all are losing with these continual wars.


Hal
Chicago

Calm down, everyone. We have no idea what's coming next.

20.10.11

kaleidoscope

grusilag
dallas, tx


We are in the absolute richest of times. At no point in human history has there been as much technology, medicine, and food. Austerity measures, cut backs, and recessions are not a result of actual poverty, but the result of a faulty distribution system governed and determined by a faulty monetary system. Please let's fix the monetary system and please let's stop pretending we're poor lest we make it actually happen.



Yannick
Germany


2000 families own 80% of the Greek national wealth and don't pay any taxes while the average Greek worker suffers from salary cuts of about 25%.
Everyone's talking about austerity measures but only if they don't trouble the rich people or the military budget.
This obviously is a result of the economic incompetence of the German and French governments and the fact that politics are totally controlled by the financial system.

The left-leaning Berliner Zeitung writes:

"We do not know where the financial crisis of 2011 is leading us. We only know, no, we sense, that politicians are clueless. As clueless as we are ourselves."

"Why is the rescue package getting ever bigger? Because politicians believe that only a gigantic, completely unsurpassable package will prevent speculators from pulling currencies and countries into war. Why do the leaders of Europe only meet during periods when the stock markets are closed? Because they fear the markets and share prices. Why is the German parliament, the Bundestag, being almost systematically excluded from decisions on the bailout? Because the leaders are not even sure they can convince fellow parliamentarians. Politicians are no longer thinking of their public."

"We are observing the suicide of politics. Politicians no longer make policy. What is making policy? Drawing up rules in the first place, making and enforcing laws. That is, stopping speculators from speculating. It does not entail acting as state-run speculators, speculating against speculators. But the rescue package is precisely that. It is a defensive shield against speculators which must become ever bigger as the supposed risk of speculation grows. Perhaps €2 trillion is much too little? Perhaps in four weeks we will be talking at a new EU summit of €4 trillion? Perhaps there is a way to increase the so-called leverage. The logic is absurd."

_______________________

Turkey Pursues Kurdish Rebels After 24 Soldiers Are Killed Near Iraq
By SEBNEM ARSU
After Kurdish militants killed at least 24 Turkish soldiers, Turkey’s military responded by sending hundreds of troops into northern Iraq in a counterattack on Kurdish insurgent hide-outs.



irwin
Annapolis, MD


So it's okay for the Turks to pursue terrorists into Iraq but not for Israel to pursue terrorists in Gaza. And its okay for Turkey to occupy northern Cyprus but Israel must immediately vacate the West Bank. Erdogan is a first-class hypocrite. When will he be seen for what he is?

EMIP
Washington, D.C.


JW wrote in part:

“#4 & #18: since you both seem to have a conspiratorial sense -- and of course immediately insinuate that it is payback by Israel against the Turks …”

JW, no need to have a conspiratorial sense; just read the article published 09/09/11 in the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronot , where Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, the extreme right-wing coalition partner in the present Israeli government is reported to have been:

"… planning to set meetings with the heads of Kurdish rebel group PKK in Europe in order to 'cooperate with them and boost them in every possible area.' In these meetings, the Kurds may ask Israel for military aid in the form of training and arms supplies"

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4119984,00.html

And to Postgradny who wrote in part:

“#20, So what would be the big deal for big countries like Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran to give up a small part of their land to allow the millions and millions of Kurds the right for the first time to have a land …”

The answer is for the same reason that we here in the U.S. have fought wars to prevent the secession of states from the Union - to maintain the territorial integrity of our nation.


Dulcinea
New York, NY


We must give the credit where it is due. Israeli foreign minister promised terrorist retaliation against Turkey. He has delivered. He may be a nutcase but he holds his promises.

Alex650
Bay Area, Ca


I'm so tired about hearing about "rebels" who appear from thin air that the news keeps feeding us on in order to brace us for another war.. Who cares.. Seriously.. Let us mind our own business for once, we all know the Mssd and C_I_A are stirring it up all the unrest. It's getting old and they should deal with it without even mentioning it to us.


72AS72
Dana Point, CA


Just like Hamas initially was created by the Israelis to weaken the PLO, Mssd has a long history of training terrorist groups like the PKK.
Here is the BBC report on that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glTN6tNzz1g


Yabaulee
NYC


Looks like the C_I_A and the Mssd are trying to just nudge Tayyip Erdogan a little. He irritated the heck out of them with his pro Muslims talk of "uprising" and strong words for Israel.So they asked their proxies to give him little headache.


Z.G.
Vienna, VA


Gotta agree with Yabaulee here. After a long period of silence, the PKK started causing trouble again just around the time Erdogan started talking tough on Israel. In the world of Middle Eastern politics, nothing is ever a coincidence.

17.10.11

Iran-targeting lunacies

After giving up on ObamaCare, Obambi insists with the Iran-targeting lunacies. NYTimes has it:

To Isolate Iran, U.S. Presses Inspectors on Nuclear Data
By DAVID E. SANGER and MARK LANDLER
President Obama wants United Nations inspectors to release intelligence showing that Iran’s nuclear program is designing and experimenting with weapons technology.

__________
The readers, smarter than the official if not officious, writers have it:

Bill M
California
October 15th, 2011
8:16 pm
President Obama is looking more and more like Israel's poodle as he follows Israel's dangerous and foolhardy script for attacking Iran. When is he going to sit down with Iranian representatives and work out our differences rather than risking another (fourth) war with unknowable consequences worldwide?
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7.
Grisha
Boston
October 15th, 2011
8:16 pm
Will the US make the same demand with respect to Israel?!? Otherwise, this is sheer hypocrisy and a prevarication to justify as US/Israeli act of war.
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3.
Simon
Tampa
October 15th, 2011
8:15 pm
It is Iraq all over again. Good thing that I never believed that Obama was any kind of change to believe in.
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4.
hillishager
Florida
October 15th, 2011
8:15 pm
Just what we need from Obama. More war. More spending of money we don't have.

Does Obama have any sense beyond trying to get reelected the way Bush did -- as a "war president"?

New estimate of U.S. war costs: $4 trillion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/new-estim...
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12.
William O. Beeman
Minneapolis
October 15th, 2011
8:54 pm
The Obama administration amazingly continues to beat the dead horse of the "scary" Iranian nuclear program long after it has ceased to serve the purpose it was designed for--namely to gin up public support for a military attack on Iran. No one has provided one scintilla of evidence that Iran has a nuclear weapons program. In fact, the National Intelligence Estimates of 2007 and 2011 both reaffirmed that there is no evidence for this. Every IAEA report since Iran began to be monitored is unequivocal in stating that "no diversion of nuclear material (for military purposes) has taken place." And yet the U.S. government keeps pushing, pushing, pushing, to finally badger the IAEA to saying that Iran is building weapons. Enough already! The U.S. or Israel has been saying that Iran is one or two years away from a nuclear weapon since 1990, and requiring Iran to undertake the impossibility of proving a negative all that time.

What is this madness? Is this a sop to Israel? Insurance that President Obama will not be excoriated for being "soft on Iran" in his re-election bid? Or more ominously, a wind up to the old plan of military attack?

Now we have what appears to have been an FBI sting operation to pin Iranian-American used car salesman Mansour Arbabsiar's crazy abortive plot to assassinate the Saudi ambassador on Iran's highest leaders. It looks like the American public is being softened up for another American or American-backed adventure in the Middle East, and this one will not be pretty if it comes off.
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11.
Martha Shelley
Portland, Ore.
October 15th, 2011
8:19 pm
Where else does Obama want to start a war?
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2.
MMP
NYC
October 15th, 2011
8:15 pm
And then what? Yet another war?
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18.
Tom
Toronto
October 15th, 2011
9:20 pm
Welcome to Obama's new re-election strategy, War with Iran. (he also thinks this will finally endear him to Republicans... good luck with that).

Maybe Tehran should have had a public temper tantrum when the West assassinated several of its scientists in the past months.

Makes you wonder where the cool heads really preside.
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13.
Robert Emery
Desert SW on the Border
October 15th, 2011
8:54 pm
Obviously from this article Obama won't settle for anything less than all out WAR.
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10.
AV
NC
October 15th, 2011
8:19 pm
"any third country that did business with the central bank would be cut off from the American financial system."

I (and many around the world these days) say big deal. The American financial system is no longer the only, or even the best deal in town. We need to get used to the idea that America is now, and will increasingly become, weaker in our international dealings because we are no longer the premier economy in the world. Sure, we're still the biggest, but far less stable than in the past and the international community is looking into ways to dump us as the global market standard bearer. We have to start getting used to the idea that we are no longer, and will never again be, #1. It's time we participate in the global community as rational citizens of the world and stop the incessant insistence that we somehow deserve something extra from the world just because we're so darn special.
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22.
naluca
cleveland
October 15th, 2011
9:24 pm
It's impossible to believe, given this poor president's track record, that this saber-rattling with Iran is anything other than part of the presidential campaign.
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16.
connie mack
phoenicia new york
October 15th, 2011
9:19 pm
translation:

the united states is inviting the other western nations to join it in bombing the crud out of another country. please join us.

welcome to rome
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38.
Sarah
Westfield, NY
October 15th, 2011
11:32 pm
No more war. Stop voting for war-mongers. Enough is enough. We spend too much money trying to kill other people. This is no way to live.
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34.
susan w.
central Idaho
October 15th, 2011
11:32 pm
So here we go again with suspected WMDs. I suppose since fear worked for Bush and Obama is his clone this is the new reelection strategy ginned up to distract from the current unemployment crisis.

Why oh why must we have nothing but war-mongering macho men in power who think the only way to win is to out-gun the opposition.

Give peace a chance and see what happens.
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27.HIGHLIGHT (What's this?)
Don B
Massachusetts
October 15th, 2011
11:32 pm
Attacking Iran is crazy. Look what happened to Saddam when he invaded Iran! Besides, what kind of idiot thinks they can stop someone from developing weapons by threatening them? For that to be effective, Iran would have to believe we wouldn't attack them if they gave up their Nuclear program. Saddam gave up his and we invaded and hung him. Qaddafi gave up his and we helped overthrow his government. Iran and North Korea believe they need Nuclear weapons because that seems to be the only thing that scares the American government enough to prevent us from attacking them. The aren't wrong.

The Nuclear nonproliferation treaty requires nuclear states such as the US to protect nonnuclear signatories such as Iran from Nuclear attack by others such as Israel. No one believes that we will live up to our obligations. That is another reason why Nuclear weapons are spreading rapidly.
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23.
LZ
Pennsylvania
October 15th, 2011
9:24 pm
This is not the change that I voted for. Ron Paul for President! He is the only one I believe in now.
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45.
Esther Haman
DC
October 15th, 2011
11:32 pm
The Zionist have made a fool out of our president. President Obama is trying hard to stay with this baseless accusation just to justify the new sanctions that we are forced by the Zionists to be imposed on the Iranians.

It is a shame how much this tail is able to wag the dog.

Get real.
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44.
TedV
Houston, TX
October 15th, 2011
11:32 pm
The sad episode at the UN over the Palestinian issue has left Obama looking just like one more Aipac drone in the US government, and this time around, his pet like obedient response pushes us into the danger zone. It's inconceivable that this so called plot, an amateurish flop, be cause for even mentioning a war posture against Iran.
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20.
MS
Chicago
October 15th, 2011
9:23 pm
this is the same type of rethoric during the Bush administration, nothing changed. It all about oil and why we need to energy independent!!
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17.
GorgeClimber
Washington
October 15th, 2011
9:20 pm
I cannot, with good conscience, ever imagine voting for any of the GOP candidates except Huntsman, who has some understanding of international affairs. I just wish that the US government would get off their use of isolation as a strategy for dealing with countries that don't kowtow to them. The strategy has just punished the citizens, but not the leaders, of Cuba, Iraq, North Korea, and Iran among others. While I believe we have the best country to live in on the planet, I also believe we have a lot of leaders and representatives who are cruel and flat-out incompetent. Otherwise they would focus on domestic issues and practice compromise.

Rather than singling out Iran, perhaps the IAEA should put out a table listing ALL countries having nuclear capability or aspirations and what capabilities they have. The US still will not address the issue of whether Israel has the capability. Since some nuclear scientists retired from Berkeley in the US to Israel, one would foolish to think they do not. 20% enrichment for a reactor production of medical isotopes is typical. To get to the 90-98% needed for bomb grade still takes a lot more steps in the enrichment process.

As a follow-up to the recent arrest, the idea that a terrorist incident would be used in DC to assassinate the Saudi ambassador is pretty far-fetched. Were the event to occur, the US would use the case as a pretext to blow the hell out of Iran and Iran knows it. I sure hope the US government starts taking the accused to trial a lot quicker than they did the Guantanamo or Moussaoui trials. I sure hope they can bring truthful evidence, in contrast to the way Colin Powell got set up on the "weapons of mass destruction."

President Obama should consider why G Bush 1 and Al Gore didn't get to be president ... something called a third party. Even though I've supported Obama on many issues, he's testing my patience with Iran and getting us even more immersed overseas. After Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, what else?
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43.
friend for life
USA
October 15th, 2011
11:32 pm
The real battle for Obama at the moment I believe is raising campaign donations and sending strong signals to the banking and AIPAC sectors in America that he can deliver the goods, and that they should donate big - it's the 2012 campaign and he's auctioning off domestic and foreign policy to anyone with treasure. Shame on you Mr. Obama -

Why are you not spending your time thinking and planning to tackle all the threats looming closer to home for America - like the corruption of the banking and finance sector destroying the foundation of democracy. Other domestic failures gaining speed will lead to profound destabilization if not revolution, to say nothing of real and pervasive poverty expanding in the USA for decades in the future. Food, jobs, education, environmental protection, take your pick and get busy spending your days in meetings to tackle these problems instead of spending your time digging deeper into more foreign policy failures.

If you're smart you can begin an effort toward restoring democracy to America, if you're another Nixon or Cheney just keep it up and your legacy will be nailed to America's legacy of hypocrisy like no other president of the past. Some people are saying it's well past time to return that Nobel Peace Prize. I'm sad to say in recent months I have finally lost all faith too. I have carefully faced the facts and any sense of voting for you again has been lost, change and hope no longer exist and won't be offered again to a candidate for a long time. Thanks Mr President, you've taken the level of political hypocrisy and deception in America to a new level.
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40.
LaurieAG
Queensland, Australia
October 15th, 2011
11:32 pm
I don't know what's happened to the USA that the world used to know.

At least the wars will stop when your military can't afford to go invading other countries anymore. Then your internal wars start because your politicians blew the trillions they should have spent on health, education and infrastructure.

Vale America.
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36.
Jon
New Mexico
October 15th, 2011
11:32 pm
It's sad that when a lunatic like Ahmedinejad discusses U.S. foreign policy, he makes more sense and is more trustworthy than our own president or any of our president's advisors.
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39.
Aredee
Madison, Wi
October 15th, 2011
11:32 pm
When the news first broke of Iran's supposed involvement in the assassination plot, I assumed that it was the start of a campaign to justify taking out Iran's nuclear installations.
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50.
Frances Morris
Boulder, CO
October 16th, 2011
1:44 am
The bogus "murder plot" is to Iran as the bogus "WMD" was to Iraq. Are we so gullible as to be once again lied into another war, this time WW 3? We have reached the zenith of folly and self-destruction!!


_________________________

NOW, DO YOU ALSO DETECT AN EMERGING LINE OF THE POPULAR DISCOURSE IN THE ABOVE COMMENTS?

WILL THE CHOSEN ACT OR REACT?

12.10.11

crying wolf vs. jaded public

U.S. Accuses Iranians of Plotting to Kill Saudi Envoy
By CHARLIE SAVAGE and SCOTT SHANE
Federal authorities said they have foiled a plot by men linked to the Iranian government to kill the Saudi ambassador to the United States and to bomb Saudi and Israeli Embassies.



_____________

Margaretleo
NY

I don't believe this for one minute. Why would Iran risk war with the U.S.? This is a lie meant to justify the U.S. or Israel attacking Iran. Once again the American people will be complicit in the commission of a crime.



Voltaire
San Francisco, CA

How utterly convenient that this supposed plot is being revealed at this particular moment. It drives all the other more pressing news items off the front page. No front page articles about the ongoing occupation of Wall Street. No more front page coverage of the increasingly embarassing details coming about about Eric Holder's false testimony about his involvement in the illegal arms shipments to the Mexican drug cartels.

This is "Wag The Dog" all over again. It reeks of desperation.



robert21
brooklyn

I get a creepy feeling that the Industrial Miliary OverLords are seeing the end of The Iraq thing and the Afhganistan Thing coming to an end soon and they need a new source of Income. Let's set the tone for a new war-with Iran!!!

Yes it won't be long before Cantor and Boehner and Limbaugh and CHeney will be calling for Military Action in Tehran. Let them pick up a rifle and go.



Nazir Lunat
Stockton, California

Load of garbage. The Obama regime is looking for excuses based on fabricated lies. Are we expected to believe that the Iranians are so stupid to hatch such a silly plot.
The USA is well known for conceiving conspiracy theories, are we not reminded of the Bush lies that Iraq posed an imminent nuclear threat. Now we have Holder peddling his lies




Phaedo
Earth

This story is intriguing on several different levels due to the different plot-lines it excites.

Attorney General Holder, the D.E.A., and the FBI are all getting pats on the back from Obama even in light of the publicly disastrous "Fast and Furious" weapons sting operation. Does this administration really think that American citizens have such short-term memory loss?

This entire assassination plot was technically never going to take place. Once the plotters made contact with the undercover D.E.A. agent, posing as the Mexican drug cartel member, the plot was essentially ruined. The first meeting took place sometime in the Spring. This begs several questions: Was there ever any real danger? Was the Iranian gov't really that involved in such an unorganized scheme?
To add confusion to the entire situation, the original plan was to to have the Mexican cartel kidnap the Saudi ambassador. So when did it become an assassination plot, before or after contact was made with the undercover D.E.A. agent?

The story will surely ignite the debate about border control between U.S. and Mexico. And, in the coming days we will hear from many Congress members about the ways in which Obama should "retaliate."

Meanwhile, news stories about true American strife will be brushed aside in favor of talking "terror." Citizens will continue to take opposing sides on issues like abortion, gay marriage, and immigration rather than holding our leaders accountable for job creation, tax reforms, and big business legislation. Our politicians are extremely good at what they do, unfortunately what they do is not always in the best interest for the country itself.




JHinNC
Charlotte NC

Looks to me like somebody's wagging the dog for "Fast and Furious" Eric Holder. How far is the Obama administration willing to go to rehabilitate this mutt's political viability?




Rich
Huntington Beach, CA

If the report is true, then congratulations are in order to our Federal Intelligence Community, for a job well done. Keep-up the good work.



AmatureHistorian
NYC

POTUS needs a war to get reelected.




RDV
Pennsylvania

Ah, the "mobile WMD labs" and "uranium tubes" necessary to justify bombing Iran. I wondered when this was going to be ginned-up.




Jeff North
California

WHEW!! The saudis can breathe a huge sigh of relief. This latest plot will undoubtably distract the Western media as their warlords in Riyadh mow down democracy protestors with impunity.

Remind me again why we even have a saudi embassy in DC??



xx123xx
USA

Boy! There are conspiracy theorists everywhere and for every issue. Even a report like this one gets labelled as a distraction against the Wall Street occupation movement; a political preparation for war with Iran; another business plan of the war industry; and what comes next?

Why can't we just take these news at their face value, and praise the good work that the American Intelligence is doing to protect us, and thank them?

Let's redirect our hostility toward Wall Street, the politicians, the big industry, and express it in other more appropriate fori. Let's enjoy these good news.



IT
Ottawa, Canada

Interesting how the first mention of this story in the New York Times contained this quote.
'... "We will not let other countries use our soil as their battleground," Preet Bharara, the U.S. attorney in Manhattan, said at a press conference in Washington with Holder and FBI Director Robert Mueller. ...'
Quite understandable why such a risibly hypocritical statement should be dropped from reporting. After all even in an "exceptional" country insisting that the rest of the world must 'do as we say not as we do' seems gratuitously offensive.



Andy
Palo Alto CA

I simply don't believe it. Smells to me like a neocon pretext to start that war with Iran they've always wanted.

Whose interests are being served? Our military-industrial oligarchs: yes. Our 'ally' Israel: yes. America and its people: no.



Evan
Bronx, NY

It's amusing to see a lot of comments here accusing the administration of using this incident for political purposes. In light of 9/11/2001, I wish the Bush administration had acted as proactively in preventing it, as they did to use it as an excuse to go to war in Iraq. If in fact this plot had been successful, I would bet the very same who are accusing Obama of using this for political purposes would be accusing him of being soft on terrorism.



Greg
Sugar Land, TX

LET ME GUESS . . .

Do they have Weapons of Mass Destruction too ?




Cass
New Jersey

We're supposed to believe this? Why does our government have to trot out Iran as the bad guy? Agree with other posters who've said this takes the spotlight off of the assassination of Awlaki, the OWS protesters, and I would add my own two cents: the upcoming vote on Palestinian statehood. Looks like votes are lining up in favor so the the U.S. of A is going to have to use its veto. Wage the dog indeed.



Christopher Hill
Houston, Texas

This stinks to high heaven. There are so many things wrong with this, I dont know where to begin:

- Does anyone believe that Iranian intelligence would try to use Mexican gangs to carry out their dirty work? Please.
- If you listen closely, the Feds are not alleging the Iran government was involved. "Elements" of the government could mean anything. But they are saying "Iran' enough to bait the press into printing headlines like "Iran terrorist plot foiled".
- Of all the countries in the world for the Iranians to attack a Saudi diplomat, why here? No way!
- Some Fed was already quoted as saying "the plot was foiled before it even became a plot". So, as time goes on, we will learn that there were a few clowns set up for a fall, by our government that needed this play (for whatever reason).




Tyler
NYC

False flag operation!




marc
Florida

Something does not smell right with this story. The Iranians hire drug guys to kill a Saudi in the US? The US-Iranian citizen has a criminal record in the US. Why would a secret operative be getting into trouble with the law? This is not going to turn out as reported. But, with Iraq winding down, we might have to spend a few more million dollars on bombs for Iran (as in, dropped on them.) Drug thugs are a very convenient scapegoat for anyone planning a crime, or trying to divert attention. Stay tuned for this one.



John Hrvatska
NY

All the fabricated evidence the US used to justify its invasion into Iraq has ruined its credibility. How does the world know that this time the US isn't using this to pick a fight everyone knows it wants to have? It could be that the US is telling the truth on this one, but how would you know?



Carlos
Bogota, Colombia

I don't doubt the Quds Force, so involved in proyecting Iranian influence in the Middle East, would be able to imagine something like this. But why would the Iranians do something so stupid, so intrepid and so easily traceable back to them?
Why single out the Saudi Ambassador IN the US, if you could target Saudi interests abroad, in places like Europe or the Middle East far easier and with less risk and higher operational control?
And why use the Mexican drug cartels, an unreliable and completely new "ally" to say the least? Didn't they (the Quds force) make a background check on the DEA agent they were using for the plot?

A bunch of holes in this operation.




Drew
Chapel Hill, NC

Wow, this is one way to distract us from the theft that is going on on Wall Street. They are pushing the Iranian gov. connection really hard. AND, who knew Eric Holder was still around!?! I though he dropped off the map years ago - looks like he was just staying out of site so he would not have to work on the rampant fraud in the financial sector.




Phil Greene
Houston, Texas

So the US is trying to pick another fight. This time it is Iran. Why is this news? I rather like Iran.



in-awe
California

"Mr. Holder said the Mexican government had been instrumental in the investigation."

Very interesting. Proponents of a sealed southern border have produced evidence for years that there are large numbers of Middle Eastern illegal border crossers. I wonder if this will be further proof of the danger of leaving the border fundamentally open. Congress should press Holder for details about this issue.




Persique
Minnesota

I cannot believe the nightmare is happening again. Not only I don’t believe this story, I firmly believe that this the same pretext to war as happened with the Iraq’s non-existent WMD allegation which we never found. Our government is destroying our home country by falling prey to foreign propagandists all around and Special Interest Groups.
America must do what is good for America, but what is good for America must not be bad for others as it will eventually come back to haunt us.
Our agitations in Syria, our suppression of Egyptian’s hope of a free and democratic nation, our turning a blind eye to the murderous regime in Bahrain, our support for the hated government in Yemen all lead to only one conclusion and that is preserving Israel’s impunity to literally enslave the Palestinians.
Former President George W. Bush said, “The Israelis have a right to defend themselves.” I agree a hundred percent, but within their own borders set by United Nations in 1948. In Palestine and Syria they are the aggressors and it is the Palestinians and Syrians who have the right to defend their country, homes, and farms by any means available to them against such a bully we support.
We cannot support and continue our daily drone attacks against a concocted and non-existent threat while we are denying food, shelter, healthcare, and education for our own people.
I hope in the upcoming election we have become wise enough NOT to elect politicians who have any sort of ties with lobbyists and Special Interest Groups. We elect our politicians to look after us not some spoiled child who spies on us, steals from us, and demeans our President.




zygote1331
NY

An attack on the US soil to bomb Saudi & Israeli embassies? As noted here this sounds ludicrous. Iran can attack Saudis on the Arabian Peninsula with impunity. Why bring it to the US? The intersection of Iran and Mexican cartels only serves this administration. Hell, now we can invoke two bogey men in one plot! Last point: why is it such an outrage when others wage secretive black ops missions in the US when we do that daily throughout the world? Can anyone smell hypocrisy?



HAIDER ALI
NEW YORK

It seems more fiction than fact. Iranians are the most active agents of the CIA, Mansoor Arbab and Ghulam Shakoor look like on the payroll of the U.S. Treasury Department.
We have seen the fabricated and unsubstantiated news about Libya by the CIA, which caused the massacre of women and children there. For the Republicans it was just a fun, and an act of heroism. Anyhow we can't trust our government anymore.




azarn
Wheaton, IL

If the Iranians really wanted to carry out the plot, they would do it somewhere else where the security is lax. This is another fabricated lie planted by the US, Israel, and Saudi Arabia to divert attention from the economic problems at home and the military problems in Iraq and Afghanistan.



led33
Montreal

“Iran has no respect for international law.” LOL! This coming from a Saudi diplomat! If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black!



Paul
White Plains, NY

You mean the Iranians are bad enough so that even Holder has finally been forced to recognize that fact? I guess the Obama appeasement policy towards radical Islam didn't work after all.




David
Cambridge, MA

One man is a US citizen, as much an American as any other. Why does the headline say "Iranians" are accused? Is it now the policy of the Times to identify crime suspects in headlines by their ethnicity? I'd like to see that. Or is this a way of making insinuations of government responsibility in the absence of any proof?

Attempts by the US government to play the victim of the Iranian government are comical. Did they overthrow our elected government? Install a murderous secret police regime in our country? Arm Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons to attack us? Shoot down our passenger plane and award the commanding officer a medal? (Well, maybe, but apparently we blame a hapless Libyan!)

If anything, this incident calls to mind the assassination in Washington of the Chilean diplomat Orlando Letelier. But that murder was committed by our government's right-wing terrorist allies, so the press didn't make tortured attempts to turn it into a casus belli.



Todd
Paradise Calif

A dollar to a dime that if you follow the money trail that it would lead you to a third party, not Iran itself.



Harlan H.
New York, NY

Hm, I usually think of the Iranian government as misguided, but not stupid. If these allegations are true, they've moved on to stupid and/or suicidal.

Given that, one wonders if this was just a "side project" of a couple of misguided operatives.



Lance
New York City

If actually real, such a plot by a foreign government would be an act of war, no? I'm curious to know the status of such actions under international law.



'MerkaTheBroke-n
Atlanta, GA

Thirteen (13) Saudi nationals flew airplanes into the World Trade Center Towers, the Pentagon and almost the Capitol building on 9/11/2001. George W. Bush welcomed the Saudi sheik to his personal ranch house later and kissed his hand to boot. Put that in your crackpipes and smoke it up good warped 'merka!!! Kirk out, beam me up Scottie, this country is warped INSIDE-OUT, UPSIDE-DOWN, BACKWARDS, DIAGONALLY!!!



Morey
Knoxville, TN

What a bunch of nonsense! I thought the State Department was more creative in propeganda than that!!



egf
Houston

Dear Federal Government:
No. It is not okay that you begin building a case to invade another country in order to provide a distraction from what is going on at home. Again. This time we're paying attention and the truth will get out there. Find another way to deal with whatever it is this time.



Coldfeet
New York

NOT credible. The source (the US government) has a history of fabricating evidence and inventing facts to justify wars with other countries. This can be confirmed through the archives of this newspaper -- cf: Iraq War. Without independent confirmation of all assertions made by the United States government anything Holder says about this affair is meaningless.



KQ
GA

Obama picking a fight with Pakistan over Haqqani.
Now picking a fight with Iran.
"It is the ECONOMY Mr. Obama"
We will see you November 2012



Pancho
Yuma Arizona

They're saying it reads like the script from a Hollywood movie. Yea, a bad movie. Why would Iranians come into the US to plot a murder? Why come to the US to hire assassins from Mexico?

Why not plot the murder from downtown Jerusalem to implicate the Israelis? Why not hire unemployed Americans to make the hit? Why not purchase AK-47's and thousands of rounds,legally, here in the US and do the job themselves? Why not hire Saudi students who are already in the country to make it look like dissident students who hate the Saudi monarchy? Make the students believe they're going to bomb the Israeli Embassy, then have a truck rigged with explosives creash into the Saudi embassy by a hand-picked driver. A few students would have to die in the explosion of course, in order to sell it, but they were never going to graduate from college, anyway.

Hey, maybe I should be writing Hollywood movie scripts!



Cloudy
San Francisco,CA

So the criminals they were supposedly trying to hire were really government agents in disguise? Sounds like another set-up in which one of our alphabet soup agencies tried to entrap Muslims into committing crimes, or at least expressing interest in doing so. And why would Iranians want to attack the Saudis? Aren't they all good pals these days? This has all the earmarks of a distraction hastily arranged for the press. And possibly an excuse to crack down on the current anti-war protest in Washington itself? Maybe that's getting embarrassing?




Mark Lebow
Milwaukee, WI

Does this mean war with Iran, while we're still at war in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya?



Emmanuel
New York, NY, USA

How convenient... Just when Holder is under a subpoena for illegal gun running in Mexico. Just when Barry is so down in the polls his chance of being reelected look dim. Just after Russia and China humiliated the US in the UN Security Council last week. Mr Obama is preparing American public opinion for a fake war. A few cruise missiles launch on Iran. Another publicized assassination of an Iranian "nuclear scientist". This President is so fake it's hard to believe anything his administration does. The man who came under limelights three years with the whole world cheering is now a naked emperor. We just hope his desperation at beeing reelected doesn't take this country to the dogs more than it's already! By the way who's the champion of "targeted" assassinations, killing even its own citizens? Isn't it Barack Obama's United States?



Zuricher
New York, NY

I'm trying to understand what Iran would have to gain from perpetrating such an act...and I'm having a hard time thinking of anything. The timing is also suspicious, with the Wall Street protests gaining traction...Does this smell weird to anyone else?



nick
Skien,norway

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials



Winemaster2
GA

This may all be true, but what purpose does it serve to advertise this at this time and place. When all it would accomplish is increase hostilities in the Middle East plus more military hardware sales.



Simon
Tampa

Quite frankly, I don't believe any of this for a second. Why on earth the Iranians bother? They could kill this envoy and many other Saudi envoys in the Middle East so easily. It feels like the Bush era warmongering all over again.




Winston Smith
Mesa, AZ

When in doubt, follow the money and it will lead you to the culprit. First, I find the timing of this here purported incident incredibly interesting. The Saudis (under the US direction and with its weapons) have invaded not only Bahrain but also Yemen where they are slaughtering scores of civilians under Hillary Clinton's watchful eye. Second, as the UN vote on the Palestinian bids nears, Israel finds itself more and more with its back against the wall.

But, of course, I'm Joe Q. Stupid here and I believe what my government via its state media the NYT tell me. Let's go to war! Yeah! Iran got oil besides it will make our Zionist masters sooooooooooo happy!

War, war, war, war, war, war, war, war, war!



Concerned Citizen
New York, NY

Now, who can doubt that if McCain had been President this would have meant war with Iran?



Idi Malink
USA

America exhibits quite a bit of hubris after assassinating one of its own citizens without indictment, trial or conviction twelve days ago. It takes excessive pride to extrajudiciously assassinate a citizen and then complain about foreigners plotting to assassinate other foreigners.



_____________________

HOW MANY/WHICH OF THE ABOVE COMMENTS WERE MADE BY PEOPLE INSIDE THE SECURITY APPARATUS?

11.10.11

Why are traders called "rogues" when the financial institution loses money, but not when the entire nation gets destroyed?

UBS Blames $2 Billion Loss on Rogue Trader
The struggling Swiss bank said that a rogue trader in its investment bank had lost $2 billion. A European equities trader, Kweku Adoboli, was arrested in London in connection with the case.

Traders run amok are often sentenced to pay restitution, in addition to serving jail time or forgoing any future dealings in the securities industry. But few have been held responsible for an I.O.U. as large as the one a French court pinned on Jérôme Kerviel on Tuesday: $6.7 billion.

John M. Rusnak pleaded guilty in 2002 to faking trades in order to hide nearly $700 million in losses through rogue trades of Japanese yen for Allfirst Financial, which was then a subsidiary of Allied Irish Banks.

Mr. Rusnak worked hard to keep his wrongdoing a secret. At one point, in order to trick auditors, he was said to have posed as a fictitious trader, David Russell, with whom he supposedly had dealings. He pulled it off by renting a box at a Mail Boxes Etc. on the Upper West Side in Manhattan; when bank auditors wanted to verify his trades with the supposed Mr. Russell, Mr. Rusnak had them write to that mailbox, where he then replied as if he were the fictitious trader.

Allied Irish Banks sold Allfirst Financial to the M&T Bank Corporation of Buffalo shortly after the scandal came to light. Mr. Rusnak, for his part, was released from federal prison last year and has remained out of the headlines since then.

¶ Earning clever nicknames.The Sumitomo Corporation of Japan in 1996 lost $2.6 billion because of a rogue trader, Yasuo Hamanaka, the chief of the company’s copper trading operations. Before his rogue trades became public, he had earned the nickname “Mr. 5 Percent” — referring to the share of the world’s copper market he was said to control.

Mr. Hamanaka pleaded guilty to forgery and fraud and was jailed until 2005. Paying homage to what made him famous, he told Bloomberg News upon his release that he was “amazed” at how the price of copper had risen while he was incarcerated.

¶ Making the best-seller list. In the mid-1990s, Daiwa Bank lost more than $1 billion as a result of a rogue New York-based bond trader, Toshihide Iguchi. Mr. Iguchi was sentenced to four years in prison, which he told The Wall Street Journal was less painful than the life of deceit he was living as a rogue trader trying to cover his tracks.

While in prison, he wrote a memoir, “The Confession,” that was widely read in Japan. But after settling in Georgia upon his release, the only work Mr. Iguchi could find was a $10-an-hour job at a furniture-building shop, so he eventually headed back to Japan, where he opened an English school, The Journal reported in 2008.

But Mr. Kerviel’s case brought back bad memories. Mr. Iguchi told The Journal that shortly after the French trader was accused, he had nightmares about his own rogue trading.

¶ Going Hollywood. Nicholas W. Leeson, a trader for the British investment bank Barings, managed to topple his bank in 1995 as a result of his rogue trading. Based in Singapore, Mr. Leeson lost more than $1 billion through ill-fated bets on Japanese stock prices and interest rates.

Mr. Leeson pleaded guilty in Singapore to fraud and forgery and served four years in prison. He is now the chief executive of an Irish soccer club, Galway United.

But perhaps best of all, Mr. Leeson managed to carve for himself a place in popular culture. He commanded a reported $700,000 advance for a ghostwritten memoir, “Rogue Trader” (1997), and more recently published a self-help book, “Back from the Brink: Coping With Stress” (2005).

His first book was made into a 1999 film starring Ewan McGregor. The film, like Mr. Leeson’s trading practices, was widely panned.

¶ Putting a spin on things. Joseph Jett, a former trader for Kidder, Peabody & Company, was said to have gone rogue in a decidedly modern way: he was accused of taking advantage of a glitch in his firm’s computer system to record his trades as profitable, even if they weren’t. While Mr. Jett was never charged criminally, Kidder blamed him in 1994 for $350 million in losses and dismissed him from the firm.

Mr. Jett maintained his innocence, and he still works in finance, serving as the chief executive of Jett Capital Management, according to its Web site. The site speaks proudly of his time at Kidder.

_______________________________

FURIOUS
USA

But you know what, banks don't need regulations. They can police themselves.

If any organization leaves this much power in the hands of one person, and if that organization has been deemed too big to fail, I dare you to try and tell me you do not deserve to be regulated.

Sorry all you fancy bankers...you can explain it however you want.

In the end, you are nothing but gamblers who thing you have figured out ways to game a system that you cannot control or predict with anywhere near the accuracy you think you can.

Any yes, you have money, power and prestige. But you'll never get respect from people who do actual work, like creating music and art or teaching. To us, you are as shameful as a gambling addict trying one more time to rationalize why you "don't have a problem."



MOUSE WOMAN OF THE NORTHWEST COAST
WASHINGTON STATE

Why are traders called "rogues" when the financial institution loses money, but not when the entire nation gets destroyed? Why do they get arrested when their employer is hurt, but not when they wreck the economy?

Just askin'...



CHRIS
PEORIA, AZ

No need to regulate banks. Regulations just get in the way of their gambling for profits and big bonuses. And if the gambling doesn't work out, public funds are available to bail them out because they are too big to fail.

Any questions?



CHUPACABRE
TEXAS

Who gives a 31 year old person 2 billion dollars?




FANON
SF

But how can we make this the fault of teachers and unions?


SOCRATES
DOWNTOWN VERONA NJ

Alan Greenspan was wrong on many counts, but especially in his comments that "you can't regulate greed."

You can regulate greed with thoughtful public policy, enforcement of laws, and prison terms for the sociopathic narcissists who dominate Wall Street and the banking industry.

Banking used to be a respectable profession; it is now a disgrace because the industry got greedy and successfully bribed our Senators, Congressmen and President into repealing Glass Steagall.

Greed must be regulated.



MAURIZIO
NEW YORK

Would love to have been on the other side of that trade!




CITIZENBTV
VERMONT

The third law of thermodynamics applies fairly well to financial transactions. It's nice to think that money was destroy here, but in truth it moved from one bank to another. We know who the loser was. Who were the winners in this fiasco?



IBSTEVE2U
COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA

Gotta love the inference that shareholder value is going to take a hit, but not to worry: No clients got hurt.

The markets of the West have a two-tiered structure in place: Big money clients get to gamble and reap the majority of the rewards while every effort is made to shield them from loss by ensuring that only the money of retail investors, the shareholders, and/or the taxpayers is ever at risk.

And to think that it those same big money clients who anonymously fund so much of the right-wing propaganda that attempts to link any government action on behalf of the general citizenry with "socialism"...




MEMI
CANADA

"Derivatives in the foreign exchange market which are worth an estimated 4 trillion dollars a day"

There you have it. With that kind of money made simply by pushing it around, does anyone think the unregulated industry is benefitting anyone other than bankers, traders, and the already rich?

Wasn't the financial market created to service the greater economy? Why is THAT not a priority anymore? It seems the lenders aren't lending anymore. There is much too much being made by this kind of trading and regulating it will grossly interfere with its capacity to generate profit, which is against the law. Is it not? I know, we in Canada signed a free trade agreement that stipulates we cannot curtail the profits of any company that wishes to plunder our resources.

Why are we so afraid of bringing these crooks to their knees? Too big to fail? They don't do anything for almost 95% of us. They don't help anyone but themselves, so what's the worst that could happen? We regulate them, curtail their profits, stop buying into the notion the world will crumble if we don't let them do whatever they want, and take back our economies.

Trillions of dollars a day! How much of that is trickled down and how much do we at the bottom enjoy being trickled upon? Regulate this industry or face a revolution. That's the choice I see and I am not alone in my estimation.

10.10.11

is economics losing its religion status?

2 American Professors Awarded Nobel in Economic ScienceBack to Article »
By CATHERINE RAMPELL
Thomas J. Sargent and Christopher A. Sims, two Americans, won the Nobel economics prize on Monday “for their empirical research on cause and effect in the macroeconomy.”




7.
Nerd
New York, NY
October 10th, 2011
9:07 am
It's not a Nobel Prize. It's a Nobel Memorial Prize, and it is not one of the real Nobel Prizes as created by Alfred himself. It's just a prize created by economists to try to legitimatize their "science."
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3.
Jim Tavegia
Atlanta
October 10th, 2011
8:30 am
How could any American win any award concerning this economy, or their take on macroeconomics. There is not a academic or politician who knows anything about fixing this economy. And to think they are going to make money off of their award is almost ludicrous.

The world economy is spiraling into the toilet and it is clear that what is being taught in Universities around the globe is wrong-headed. but, go ahead and pat your selves on the back. That is the way the system works.
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6.
gonzobaires
Buenos Aires
October 10th, 2011
9:07 am
The prize is given to people who creates theoretical models for some specific issue, not to people who "solves" problems. They can predict things, for example, that if you get robbed you end up broke, but they cannot stop a bunch of criminals to rob your money.
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10.
joena lopez
Manila
October 10th, 2011
10:10 am
Economists have no clue how the world works . And they have no idea how to cure some of the economic maladies that besiege the world. They keep on churning out useless models and quantitative methods. The guy who heads the Federal Reserve was supposed to know everything about depression and recession and was supposed to be the greatest authority in the world about economic crises. See his performance . You know what? They have no clues--these people keep on patting each other for useless models and call each others' works breakthrough. It is time to call spade a spade: the emperor has no clothes. It is time to stop this charade called Nobel Prize in economics!
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1.
Paul
New Jersey
October 10th, 2011
8:30 am
How refreshing and timely in this age of political spin: an attempt to enforce methodical analysis on macroeconomics and to identify cause and effect.
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4.
J.Lee
Seoul, Korea
October 10th, 2011
8:34 am
Is fine math the substitute of the explanatory power? The world is in danger of possible depression created by the casino capitalism. These economists have nothing to say about that. They are saying people are unemployed out of their choice. Math cannot mask nonsense.
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13.
waynehs
norwalk, ct.
October 10th, 2011
10:10 am
It's fascinating that so many Americans over the years have won the Nobel Prize in economics. Yet the US economy (along with much of the rest of world) is a horrible mess.
Is there a positive correlation between the more Nobel Prize winning economists a country has and the worse its economy is?
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5.
Steve Bolger
New York, NY
October 10th, 2011
9:07 am
So, will they be able to explain to us why zero percent interest rates don't work as advertized to stimulate anything?
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22.
Zoku
NJ
October 10th, 2011
10:10 am
The two important economists illustrate through there brilliant work, the difference between Supply Side(Trickle Down)Economics -vs- The New Keynesian(Demand Side)Economics. Clearly it is time for Demand Side economics to be given a chance. The rich do not like this idea because it would stop them from having many taxpayer subsidies given to them for simply supplying goods and only as many jobs as demands for those goods will allow. As can be seen plainly by the average person, demand is down, so supply is not being bought because, there is no money for the average josephine/joe to spend!
Therefore, people who manufacture those goods, those who outsourced for cheap labor overseas, are now laying off their cheap labor..Because DEMAND IS DOWN. The ECONOMY IS CRASHING WORLD WIDE. This must be stopped! It can be halted by supplying workers with jobs and therefore money to purchase goods. Government investment to infrastructure and education and green jobs is the quickest way to get the engines of the economy turning again. When will our Nobel Prize winning president begin to really tough actions to get people back to work and at a living wage?
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16.
Kurnewal
Carmel, New York
October 10th, 2011
10:10 am
How anyone can call economics a science or even a useful enterpise is beyond me when the sorry cycle of boom and bust that has always plagued capitalism continues unabated, making millions suffer. Might as well be giving Nobel prizes for religion.
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19.
Katie
Montana
October 10th, 2011
10:10 am
The good news: the commenters above aren't on the Nobel committee.
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15.
me
NYC
October 10th, 2011
10:10 am
Now that was my best laugh of the day. Really? An award - for both of these geniuses? Really?
So why are they not able to apply their knowledge to our economy?
And Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize and we are in too many wars to count and we drone kill as a sport - oh yes, we kill them so they don't have to go to Gitmo. Makes perfect sense.
Got to love those awards.
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28.
Ken
New York, NY
October 10th, 2011
10:11 am
Frankly I cannot believe some of the comments so far which indicate a complete ignorance of the value of economic science. These two economoists are working to try and explain what is happening and find a way forward. They are neigher villans nor magicians, but clear thinkers who are working to understand how modern, global economies function in order to guide sensible policy, something that has certainly been lacking in American political discourse lately.
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42.HIGHLIGHT (What's this?)
Martin
Vermont
October 10th, 2011
11:59 am
As many of the previous comments point out, the mathematical models that these people build have little use in the real world. In fact they are dangerous. This is the work that enabled the practitioners of "economic science", which is no science at all, to drive our economy over the cliff while stuffing their pockets with money.

For examples see Robert Rubin's Citibank, or Long Term Capital Management, or Harvard's endowment with Larry Summers at the school's helm (El-Erian had to abandon ship). All of these people helped to lose billions but were very richly rewarded.

If you have any doubt that these people are dangerous to your financial well-being, it is time to re-read Nassim Taleb's book "The Black Swan".

It will be a brighter day when the Bank of Sweden awards the prize to Taleb himself in a final gesture before disbanding their committee.
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31.
Mike
Southern California
October 10th, 2011
10:11 am
This award is nothing but a popularity contest among self-important academics. Its quite obvious given today's economic mess that Economics has become the lost science. But hey, that's an elegant equation gentlemen.
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2.
Kevin
Washington, DC
October 10th, 2011
8:30 am
Great, maybe they can figure out how to get out of this economic mess we're in.
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8.HIGHLIGHT (What's this?)
Ignacio Vera
New York
October 10th, 2011
10:09 am
Recognizing the work of Sargent and Sims was due for a long, long time. Two thumbs up to the Noble Committee.
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14.
thomas vesely
australia
October 10th, 2011
10:10 am
obama deploys predator drones, gets the peace prize.
american economists deploy global poverty, get an economic prize.
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9.
Lizbethem
Massachusetts
October 10th, 2011
10:10 am
Oh the irony!
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25.
K Henderson
NYC
October 10th, 2011
10:10 am
sorry but 'academic economists' = bunk.

Let's just call them Math professors, which is closer to the truth and closer to the academic work that they are actually doing.
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69.HIGHLIGHT (What's this?)
Robert Campos
Princeton, NJ
October 10th, 2011
12:21 pm
I'm taking a class with Professor Sims right now and he is very knowledgeable about what's happening in today's economic climate. He is not a politician, so while he may know what the cause and effect is for macro-level economic prosperity, it is politicians and their distributive (or not so distributive) fiscal policies that governs who benefits from our economy and the Fed's monetary changes. Zero interest rates do not work the same way as they used to because we now pay interest on reserves. There is no more money multiplier anymore. Can you imagine? There's your answer, Steve Bolger. Overall, Ignacio Vera is right - Sims and Sargent were long overdue for this prize. Congrats to these brilliant scholars. Ignore other commenters jaded and bitter trolling due to their short-comings and failures as human beings. These professors deserve it.
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18.
JD
Ohio
October 10th, 2011
10:10 am
I really am not qualified to comment on the quality of the winner's work. However, the fact that they received the Nobel prize does not give them any extra credibility to me. They join such "worthy" Nobel winners as Obama and Al Gore. Additionally, the award of the prize to Paul Krugman in retrospect seems to be mistaken based on extremist attacks on those who oppose his ideology. (For instance, he has claimed that those who opposed drastic CO2 limitations are traitors.)

JD
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12.
Shiela
The Woodlands, TX
October 10th, 2011
10:10 am
Mr. Sims, who has won a prize for his excellent research on the subject, will not proffer an opinion on how to get us out of this economic mess (he says he doesn't have an answer!) Shall we then consider the opinions of those in the Obama administration-- or anywhere else-- who are patently less expert on the subject?
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23.
DB
NYC
October 10th, 2011
10:10 am
This is like a bad Saturday Night Live skit. This is for "empirical" research done 30 or 40 years ago? What this really tells me is that 1)we have no actual research economists anymore as they are all political shills like Krugman and 2)that the Nobel Prize is a joke. I guess we all knew that when Obama won for saying "Hope and Change" with just the right timbre.
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32.HIGHLIGHT (What's this?)
Bert Gold
Frederick, Maryland
October 10th, 2011
10:15 am
No offense intended to the two honorable academics selected, but I think this is a poor choice at this time. Macroeconomics is akin to weather forecasting (but without the radar). It is reasoning based on 'natural experiments'. One can't do a macroeconomic experiment without full government cooperation (when does that ever happen?). One of the theories of Sims is a staunch government-must-balance-budgets at all costs, theory:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_theory_of_the_price_level
So, this is a political prize. A reward for capitalists in an arcane area where no objective predictions are possible except in the case of a serendipitous natural experiment that emulates our current state.

I was hopeful that the rumors were true and that Paul Romer would be rewarded for helping us to understand the role of Technology in economies. But, such a wise choice this committee did not make.
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