Fannie and Freddie were the most regulated institutions in the world. They had there own agency devoted to regulating them with several hundred employees. The regulator failed under Clinton just as it did under Bush, so this isn't an issue of politics.
Regulation in not a panacea because the regulators have a massive incentive to become corrupt, or more likely to just look the other way and worry about their personal lives more than their regulatory duties. Think about it, you are a government employee making maybe $70k a year working 40 hours a week and surfing the net all day. You have little or no real responsibilities other to look over the shoulder of a company. If you go with the flow you keep your cushy job with no risk to your well being. Where is the incentive?
The political heads of the various departments have near zero authority over the employment status of the bureaucracy, so they do as they please.
As a career soldier I can call a spade a spade. We have a guy who graduated in the bottom 10 of his Naval class and still went to flight school. Flight school in the military is reserved for the academic best unless your father is an admiral. Flying, with a lack of aptitude most certainly resulted in his POW status. This POW status has been the center piece of his political career. Not his education or his ability, not his judgment nor his integrity, its been his POW status.
We have a gal who received a cash award from being runner up as Ms. Alaska and used the money to go to college earning a degree in journalism. Her popularity in beauty contests later served to get her elected. For those who believe in melding church and state and establishing laws based on the moral values of your religion I can see how Palin could be an attractive choice but I have been to countries where religion rules the government.
What few people ever seem to get is that the problems we are dealing with starts with the front line people making the mortgage loans. Professionally, I am one of these quants from a mortgage investment company that has gone belly-up.
The fact is that with no/low document loans, the entire financial system was relying on those people to feed us loans that had the same relative risk of the loans they had fed us in the past, everything else being equal — credit scores, LTVs, borrower incomes, etc.
But guess what, when mortgage rates started to move up and the prime market started to slow, these guys started to fudge the loans they were making. Want a better rate on your investment property? I'll put down that it will be your primary residence instead, that'll cut 1/2 percent. Need an appraisal at $250,000, when it reasonably should be $200,000? I'll find you the right appraiser — wink, wink, nod, nod. And so on.
I've worked it out with my colleagues. Historically, it takes at least 6-9 months to tell that a mortgage deal is starting off poorly, maybe 12-15 months. The REALLY bad subprime loans started in late 2005. My firm caught on in mid-2006. We started running numbers, looking for the reasons. Months ticked by. It was the end of the year and we had our five culprits. Loan characteristics that never appear on the computer files shared by loan sellers AND SO WERE NEVER IN THE MODELS. We built an add-on to our model for 2007, but too late we were sunk. What we'd already bought in 2006 and the market reaction to S&P and Moody's horrendous management of their rating actions destroyed the market and us.
Wall Street greed? Yes, they (we) were enablers of fraud by the front line mortgage brokers getting their $2000 per loan pumped into the system. But do you expect the head of a street mortgage shop go to his boss in 2005 and say, "Mr. O'Neal/Mr. Fuld/Mr. Whoever, there is too much risk in my business line (although the data doesn't show it yet). Fire my entire mortgage group."
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C'mon people! Wake up, nobody sees the proverbial 800 pound gorilla…
The quants didn't invent these products. They were just asked by mgmt to justify the decision to securitize the loans to housekeepers. These junior (Chinese or Russian) guys are fresh from a math or physics program and have no clue about what a mortgage is and the local economy of CA or FL.
The experienced sales guy who"ll reap the 7-figure bonus knows exactly though what he's doing when he's stuffing the securities to the investors and saying "our quants have used a very conservative 2% default rate and, anyway, two rating agencies say it's AAA".
The rating agencies are of course accomplice; they have their own clueless quants too and have never changed default assumptions since the 80s but they'll reap the hundred thousands of dollars to rate the bonds of ONE cdo.
The accountants are part of the game too. They'll tell the trader "yeah, you bought the bond and you have also bought insurance against its default from a AAA counterparty, you can therefore book the 20-year profit right now instead of waiting that long — go claim your multimillion bonus and here's our invoice" (so called "negative basis trade").
That's what is at the crux of this mess but how come nobody talking about the gorilla in the room?????
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"I think the underlying current is that these firms and their senior decision makers have had a blind faith in their risk models, the one exception being Goldman Sachs. Clearly, the traders and senior management at Goldman know that computer models designed by PhD grads are still no substitute for experience and sound judgment."
My take-away is somewhat different. The difference at Goldman is that management asked the quants to build models that reflected reality to the best of their ability, while in most cases the staff was required to build models that reflected the business model (illusions) some manager wanted to use, knowing that short-term gains would yield them rich rewards. Search the page for "Goldman" and you'll find this.
This isn't a rocket science event like LTCM. What happened was a long housing price boom fueled the sort of abuses common to such events. Several levels of participants were motivated (by greed) to game the system, canceling the checks that normally prevent you or me from buying a house and defaulting, from a 200K property from getting a 250K mortgage, from a B security being sold as AA and so on. At higher levels it was more abstract and the information less clear. But the fraud at street level wasn't secret; it was encouraged, perhaps indirectly created by the next level up and so forth, because the securities were meant to be held briefly and passed along. It was a multiplayer virtual reality version of the old pyramid scheme.
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Three short observations:
1. It makes no sense to ridicule the intelligence of people who walked away from this debacle with billions of dollars.
2. For at least 20 years, responsible economists and journalists have bemoaned the level of US debt; be it personal, governmental or foreign exchange. And yet the solution to every financial hiccup has been to encourage even more debt though lower interest rates, and other mechanisms.
3. BearStearns, Freddie and Fannie, AIG, etc were deemed "too large to be allowed to fail". But the solutions so far have mostly encouraged the formation of even larger entities that are by definition "too large to be allowed to fail". It seems to me that the opinion expressed by the Economist magazine makes more sense. If a monster company must be bailed out with tax payers money, then that company should be outright nationalized;
its debt and assets should be rationalized, and then it should be broken into smaller pieces (which are not too big to be allowed to fail) and sold back to the private sector, to recover some of the tax payer money. Also, perhaps in the name of national security, no merger or acquisition should be allowed if the resulting entity would be deemed "too large to be allowed to fail".
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Well, folks, fundamentally speaking, the pen is mightier than elbow grease. We now live in a world where no productivity is needed to justify creation of currency units, ie money! Ah, money…a unit of exchange, of storage, of value, etc..The intellectual basis for this crisis is that we have decided to prioritize the symbolic aspect of money, thereby eliminating the need for real production to back up the creation of new value. It used to take a buck's skin to make a dollar. Now, we just need a dollar. Long on dollars? Go short, make up to two out of one! Garbage ideas in the minds of garbage persons yields resplendent garbage. Has anyone figured out what Jeb Bush's role over at the Lehmann Brothers Estate sale is to be, and how much he is being paid for his alleged expertise?
"Isn't it strange that these 100 year events seem to be occurring every 10 years."
I have also been in the situation of voicing an unpopular conclusion to a very bullish management team (incidentally of a firm that dabbles in commercial mortgages). Initially they were thankful for the heads-up when they were only minor problems that could be fixed within the quarter. As larger and larger issues piled up that would affect our annual guidance, I was sidelined more and more and ultimately ignored for asking very reasonable questions and voicing legitimate concerns. I was also shocked by our board of directors at their lack of curiosity in all of this. We just went with more (ridiculous) optimistic assumptions to get to where management thought we should be. Ultimately I have been proven correct but will of course not receive the credit. There isn't a whole lot anyone can do when the management team is stubborn, and will not listen to reason, risk models, or anyone else.
The point being, management teams are not stupid, they know exactly what they are doing. They have every incentive of taking outsized risks because they know they will be lavishly rewarded in the short-run, and still well-taken care of in the long-run (through golden parachutes, or just the next lucrative offer elsewhere) regardless of the outcome. For most companies that just go belly-up, it's the employees and shareholders that suffer, but at least the damage is contained, they all at least had an idea of their exposure to incompetence.
But for the really BIG screw-ups that get bailed out (AIG, Fannie, Freddie, LTCM), the management teams should all face serious jail time for financial fraud on a massive scale. No exaggeration, that is exactly what they were doing, they knew it all along and didn't care, and should face the consequences, especially now that public funds are being used to support their fraudulent behavior. NOT FINES, they have more than enough money to pay their way out of this, but actual time in a federal prison, that is the only way to scare them straight, so that others won't take those same sorts of risks in the future.
------------------------------There are two large, unmentioned elephants in this discussion.
1. Mathematical models really can't fully encompass, explain, and more or less predict reality;
2. When the broad markets use roughly the same mathematical premises as the basis of their proprietary models, the behavior of the market participants becomes positively correlated, not diversified, as a result of which the markets move in unison; thus, when the sell lights go on, they go on in more or less every trading room, there's a rush to the exits, and eventually a big pile of bodies at the door.
What really happened here is that 12-15 years ago, the financial world bought a bunch of magic beans–various models, chiefly Value at Risk–that they believed could so accurately measure risk that they could take more chances, reserve less against losses, and make more money.
The problem: These were models–not reality–and models can only anticipate a finite number of events, while reality has a nasty habit of surprising you with the unexpected. The financiers were told the models should be used as only one input to decision-making–not the decision-making process itself–but nobody listened; over time, the verdict of the models became god-like.
VaR's fundamental mistake: It's based on the idea of perfect liquidity–anything can be sold at some price– whereas when markets freeze up, there is no liquidity. And since most risk management models are built on VaR, they all reacted the same way last August to the plunge in sub-prime-related bonds–they all flashed sell signals. But since everybody was selling, there was no liquidity–only that pile of bodies at the exits.
This reminded everybody about all the weak models in their own shops, and likewise reminded them that there was nothing special about their shops, or their portfolios: That most shops' portfolios had similarly weak models, and most everybody's portfolios were salted with the results.
Since everybody knew they now had no idea of what their own portfolios were worth, it was reasonable to conclude nobody else did, either. This meant there was no more guarantee their counterparties could perform in a pinch, than there was that they themselves could perform, considering the reality that no shop knew what their own portfolios were worth.
It also reminded them that pretty much every financial asset, worldwide, had been priced off VaR-based models since it took such deep root in the markets. And that while they didn't know what these assets were worth, it was only common sense that they were worth less than the risk-adjusted price at which they'd been bought.
Ergo, no market confidence, evaporated liquidity, and frozen credit markets–and today's headlines.
And need I mention that most of the derivatives market falls into this description?
The worst part of all this is that while no one knows what anything is worth, what follows close behind is that virtually all financial assets, world wide, need to be re-priced downwards, and that there is no mechanism available to any central bank to manage an event like that: It just has to wash through the system, with the logical results.
And who's to blame for all this? Nobody. Pogo said it best: "We have met the enemy, and he is us." This is one case where everybody is to blame. And we're all going to have to pay for believing in magic beans.
Cheery prospect, ain't it?
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The Private Securities Litigation Reform Act, while not a major cause, is something I have not seen mentioned anywhere. The corporate political machine convinced everybody that securities fraud plaintiffs lawyers were fleecing investors and that legislature should raise the pleading standards for securities class actions - as a result, it became much harder to bring successfully leverage a bona fide class action complaint into a meritorious settlement. The number of filings and the average settlements went down. The government did just stop enforcing the securities laws; it decommissioned the private attorney generals out there who were doing a great job of making it very expensive to defraud the American people.
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"McCain voted in favor of this deregulation. Joe Biden and every other democratic senator voted against it."
1. Actually, McCain did not vote for Gramm-Leach-Bliley (GLB), he was on the campaign trail at the time of the vote, so we will never know his position.
2. Joe Biden did vote for GLB, as did Harry Ried, who is also out claiming that GLB is the heart of the problem.
3. Leach, the L in GLB, is an advisor to the Obama campaign.
4. In any case GLB passed 90-8 in the Senate on 11/4/1999, the House passed it 362-57, and Bill Clinton signed it into law.
If GLB has anything to do with today's problems, and I know of no evidence to support the theory, it is a bipartisan creation.
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I think the reasons for mass failures of financial institutions in developed world are:
1. Agency issues:
a. Rewarding somebody immediately for creating a long-term liability for an institution. In ideal world, the reward payout plan should reflect the term of liability.
b. BIS II regime, which allows banks to calculate their own capital requirement
2. Regulator Failures
a. Investment Banks have an incentive to create new markets (read CDS and other derivatives) and keep those markets away from public regulation. It is a job of a regulator to bring transperancy and efficient "entity neutral" price finding and settlement systems in a new every market which finds wide acceptance
b. Unified regulation of entities playing across multiple traditional roles of commercial banks, investment banks and insurers
c. All financial market regulators needed to be subservient to the monetary policy (Central Banking) authority
3. Lack of Financial Planning
a. If one has short-term funding, one needs to have short-term assets of equivalent maturity, currency and size. An institution which hopes to create wealth by riding yield curve is doomed to fail
b. Control on Leverage. The leverage of institution should be such that the instition should have capital remaining after a synchronized adverse 6-sigma movement in its entire portfolio. (If we can achieve 6-sigma quality in physical world, why we cannot create financial institutions with 6-sigma survival chances, and still make money)
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Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending
In a move that could help increase home ownership rates among minorities and low-income consumers, the Fannie Mae Corporation is easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from banks and other lenders.
The action, which will begin as a pilot program involving 24 banks in 15 markets -- including the New York metropolitan region -- will encourage those banks to extend home mortgages to individuals whose credit is generally not good enough to qualify for conventional loans. Fannie Mae officials say they hope to make it a nationwide program by next spring.
Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.
In addition, banks, thrift institutions and mortgage companies have been pressing Fannie Mae to help them make more loans to so-called subprime borrowers. These borrowers whose incomes, credit ratings and savings are not good enough to qualify for conventional loans, can only get loans from finance companies that charge much higher interest rates -- anywhere from three to four percentage points higher than conventional loans.
''Fannie Mae has expanded home ownership for millions of families in the 1990's by reducing down payment requirements,'' said Franklin D. Raines, Fannie Mae's chairman and chief executive officer. ''Yet there remain too many borrowers whose credit is just a notch below what our underwriting has required who have been relegated to paying significantly higher mortgage rates in the so-called subprime market.''
Demographic information on these borrowers is sketchy. But at least one study indicates that 18 percent of the loans in the subprime market went to black borrowers, compared to 5 per cent of loans in the conventional loan market.
In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's.
''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''
Under Fannie Mae's pilot program, consumers who qualify can secure a mortgage with an interest rate one percentage point above that of a conventional, 30-year fixed rate mortgage of less than $240,000 -- a rate that currently averages about 7.76 per cent. If the borrower makes his or her monthly payments on time for two years, the one percentage point premium is dropped.
Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, does not lend money directly to consumers. Instead, it purchases loans that banks make on what is called the secondary market. By expanding the type of loans that it will buy, Fannie Mae is hoping to spur banks to make more loans to people with less-than-stellar credit ratings.
Fannie Mae officials stress that the new mortgages will be extended to all potential borrowers who can qualify for a mortgage. But they add that the move is intended in part to increase the number of minority and low income home owners who tend to have worse credit ratings than non-Hispanic whites.
Home ownership has, in fact, exploded among minorities during the economic boom of the 1990's. The number of mortgages extended to Hispanic applicants jumped by 87.2 per cent from 1993 to 1998, according to Harvard University's Joint Center for Housing Studies. During that same period the number of African Americans who got mortgages to buy a home increased by 71.9 per cent and the number of Asian Americans by 46.3 per cent.
In contrast, the number of non-Hispanic whites who received loans for homes increased by 31.2 per cent.
Despite these gains, home ownership rates for minorities continue to lag behind non-Hispanic whites, in part because blacks and Hispanics in particular tend to have on average worse credit ratings.
In July, the Department of Housing and Urban Development proposed that by the year 2001, 50 percent of Fannie Mae's and Freddie Mac's portfolio be made up of loans to low and moderate-income borrowers. Last year, 44 percent of the loans Fannie Mae purchased were from these groups.
The change in policy also comes at the same time that HUD is investigating allegations of racial discrimination in the automated underwriting systems used by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to determine the credit-worthiness of credit applicants.
1 comment:
Buffett to Invest $3 Billion in G.E.
October 1, 2008, 2:02 pm
Warren E. Buffett is again buying into the bluest of blue-chip companies — at a steep discount.
This time, the famed investor is buying $3 billion in perpetual preferred stock from General Electric, the conglomerate seeking to allay concerns about its financial health amid the whipsawing markets.
G.E., whose latest troubles spring from its immense financial operations, also said that it would sell at least $12 billion of common stock.
The move is the latest investment by Mr. Buffett amid the financial clampdown. Last week, the famous investor bought $5 billion in perpetual preferred stock in Goldman Sachs, the financial giant that has recently transformed itself into a bank holding company.
Shares in G.E., long considered a bellwether because of its broad range of businesses, have fallen 42 percent this year, amid concern that the company is too big to maneuver in the market turmoil. It has twice cut its earnings estimates, and has said that it will shed businesses to focus on core operations like infrastructure.
Video
Like Goldman’s, G.E.’s concessions to Mr. Buffett are steep. The perpetual preferred stock carries a dividend of 10 percent, and can be repurchased after three years at a 10 percent premium. Berkshire Hathaway will also receive warrants to buy $3 billion of common stock at $22.25 within the next five years.
“G.E. is the symbol of American business to the world,” Mr. Buffett said in a statement. “I have been a friend and admirer of G.E. and its leaders for decades. They have strong global brands and businesses with which I am quite familiar. I am confident that G.E. will continue to be successful in the years to come.”
G.E.’s embattled chief executive, Jeffrey Immelt, said that the investment would bolster the conglomerate’s financial base and help it keep its sterling triple-A credit rating. He added that he expected the markets to remain volatile for some time, but remained confident in G.E.’s strategic plan.
Goldman, which is also Mr. Buffett’s longtime investment bank, worked as the bookrunner for the deal, and G.E. said it expected to add Bank of America, Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, J.P. Morgan and Morgan Stanley as additional bookrunners.
Go to General Electric Press Release »
166 comments so far...
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1.
October 1st,
2008
2:06 pm
The vultures are circling.
— Posted by MARK KLEIN, M.D.
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2.
October 1st,
2008
2:15 pm
Warren: You are one of the few investors I know that is actually making money in this most difficult market. Good for you for being patient and having enough “dry-power” to gobble up assets at these depressed prices.
I doubt the market is bottoming, but no one is smart enough to call the absolute bottom. However, your GS and GE investments seem pretty damn smart right now.
Karl Zachar
— Posted by Karl Zachar
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3.
October 1st,
2008
2:29 pm
Thank God it’s the only American co left/We need there products/Thanks Warren for having faith so many owned by another part of world.
— Posted by elaine flanagan
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4.
October 1st,
2008
2:31 pm
Now this is getting scary….
— Posted by Jay Smathers
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5.
October 1st,
2008
2:37 pm
Why does GE need capital? I thought it wall capitalized. And why agree to such expensive financing from Buffett. the financing raises more questions than answers.
— Posted by sami
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6.
October 1st,
2008
2:37 pm
If GE a real triple AAA rated credit why is it raising capital through a perpetual preferred share offering 10%? It sounds like GE Capital’s returns were based on a leveraged portfolio and not a rosy as management would like to portray it.
— Posted by hammer
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7.
October 1st,
2008
2:45 pm
Why would GE expect to add 5 additional bookrunners on a privately negotiated deal that is between two of the worlds most sophisticated investors? They are not underwritting the issue - all the capital is being provided by Mr. Buffet.
Could this be more evidence of leage table games being played in order to keep all the banks happy?
— Posted by Jim Luterio
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8.
October 1st,
2008
2:46 pm
That GE would grant such favorable terms to Warren Buffet can only be taken as an admission of the depth of their problems. Berkshire Hathaway gets a guaranteed 10% dividend plus the option to buy shares at a deep discount in the future. I shudder to think what this means for GE’s financial services division, and for the common shareholders.
— Posted by Larry -- New York City, USA
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9.
October 1st,
2008
2:46 pm
This is an interesting development. It indicates to me that our current financial situation is much more dire than I had previously believed. GE has traditionally been one of the best capitalized companies in the United States. Its the only company that has been in the Dow since its inception.
— Posted by MrEdCT
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10.
October 1st,
2008
2:48 pm
Mr. Buffett has proven that being a great American can be demonstrated by putting your money where your mouth is. Granted, Mr. Buffett is a very wealthy man and his investments should earn him a nice return. But capitalistic America helped him create that wealth. And it seems to me, he is giving back to our great country and showing his faith in our financial markets. Let’s hope Congress pays attention and puts an end to the political sideshow. The bailout maybe imperfect but do we really have time to debate this for weeks? “Mainstreet America” needs an economic lesson as do many House Republicans! The clock is ticking………
— Posted by Charlotte
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11.
October 1st,
2008
2:55 pm
Bla bla - he buys into it, because GE has a monopoly in many fields and long term contracts. Just look at the GE logo and you what kind of company it is. OLD! And old will go and fade pretty soon. Monopolies will finally fall and AFTER that we will all do better.
— Posted by Freddy Drifter
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12.
October 1st,
2008
2:56 pm
Any chance the GE ownership of MSNBC and NBC contribute to their failure? GE sponsors the politics of the crazy liberal fringe.
— Posted by Deborah Harry
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13.
October 1st,
2008
2:58 pm
You criminals drive me crazy, stop the bailout, i mean sellout of us taxpayers, criminals invest 5 billion days before the ex-chairman asks me for 700 billion, now 3 billion in warrants…..you suck… other beneficiaries of teh sell out read the bill:
Nascar
Railroads
Puerto Rico
Somoa
Wool research
Rum
Mining
all must be holding mortgage paper
US leaders are criminals and belong in Jail
— Posted by AL
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14.
October 1st,
2008
2:58 pm
Jeff Immelt is a disastorous CEO. I really can’t believe Buffett would put money behind him as CEO. He won’t last through the end of the year.
— Posted by mwb
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15.
October 1st,
2008
3:00 pm
Smart, smart, smart. The Oracle of Omaha once again shows a lot of folks how it can be done the right way
with the shareholders of Berkshire Hathaway in mind
— Posted by Joe Owen
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16.
October 1st,
2008
3:01 pm
Buffett for President!
— Posted by LPD
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17.
October 1st,
2008
3:01 pm
The old man has gone insane…
— Posted by andy
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18.
October 1st,
2008
3:02 pm
So Buffett is buyng preferred stocks and the governement is buying the crap debt, shouldn’t the guys in Washington switch to preferred stocks as well? this way the taxpayers will be probably happier to save the butt of the Wall street guys
— Posted by Alessandro Tieghi
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19.
October 1st,
2008
3:05 pm
I have been a long time saver in GE Interest Plus. Will this keep my confidence up that my money will be safe? I also have stocks in GE. I notice today that prices have dropped .\ I would like to see a steady climb up soon
— Posted by helaine liebman
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20.
October 1st,
2008
3:08 pm
I laugh at the thought of Bank of America and Citigroup making recent acquisitions - with the dream of becoming too big to fail - but are quite likely to get smashed in the nose themselves. Then; will the donkeys in Washington hit “main street” again? What else would one guess?
Jerry H. Nissen
— Posted by Jerry Nissen
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21.
October 1st,
2008
3:09 pm
I Thank Mr. Buffet for his great patriot and intelligent help to USA Barbara Campbe;;
— Posted by Barbara Campbell
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22.
October 1st,
2008
3:09 pm
So the free market is dead? Tell that to Mr. Buffet…
— Posted by ken6000
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23.
October 1st,
2008
3:09 pm
1. $ 12 billion common stock offering – Big dilution for existing stock holders (right now the company valuation is 248 B$ — So, 5% more stocks)
2. Buffet is paying $3 billion for preferred stock yielding 10%. But his expected return is not just 10%. Let us continue.
3. He gets warrants to buy $3 billion worth of stocks at $22.5 per share ($ 3 billion / 22.5 = 133.33 million shares or warrants; since GE is valued at 248 B$ and GE is approximately at 24.24$ today, 10.24 billion stocks are there right now; so we are looking at 1.3% more shares – more Dilution!) when GE is already trading at 24.5$ (approximately). That is, the warrant is already in-the-money by 2 dollars (or 267 million dollars) and technically he can get this back by selling them in open market. Assuming there are restrictions on selling them today, these warrants are long term (like 5 year) call options which have big intrinsic value (in-the-money value and 5 year time-value) and can be calculated using options theory. Assuming 10% value per year (for a one year option on GE, the total cost to buy a share at 22.5 when it is selling at 24.5 today would come to approximately to 27 = 22.5 for buying + 2 dollar for in the money part of the option + 2.5 for the one year time option or $4.5 for the one year call price; In fact, Jan 2010 calls on GE goes for 4.25 for a strike price of 25 and 7.00 for a strike price of 20 when I checked the market today), the five year warrant price could be worth approximately 20$ (of course warrants are granted mostly when there is the good possibility that they might be worthless at the end of the day!). So, 20$ times 133.3 million warrants comes to 2.666 billion dollars! So, either he got all the warrants free (which no one can) or he paid only 3 B$ minus 2.66B$ equals 0.33 B$ for the preferred. So, his interest rate is not just 10% but 10*3 B$/.33B$ = 90.9%. Assuming that warrants are worth only the in-the-money value (2 dollars), the cost of warrants equal 2*133.33 = 267 millions. In that scenario, the rate on the preferred equals 10*3 B$/(3 B$ - 0.2667 B$) = 11%. So, Buffet is getting any where a return of 11% to 90.9% depending on how the warrants are valued.
4. So, we can argue based on the above calculation that there is a big fear on the part of GE about its future to agree to give away 1.3% of the company for a mere $ 22.5 per share 5 years from now, give that option for nothing, and still pay 10% interest on the money it is getting today. That says it is desperate for cash (liquidity problem).
5. On the other hand, the market cheers the news and takes the stock up by 5%. Talk of irrational exuberance!
If the calculations above are right, the country is in big trouble.
— Posted by Rama
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24.
October 1st,
2008
3:13 pm
When will the Fed’s do something about the speculative gambling going on in the market?? Our markets are not a casinos. They’re suppose to be a regulated place to do business. If our elected officials want to do the right thing, then let them start by cleaning house in D.C. & then implement the rules & regulations that are required for our financial markets. Not want the lobbyist want, but what is right for this country, our nation.
— Posted by RichardG
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25.
October 1st,
2008
3:15 pm
Mr Buffett seems to have the opportunity of buying stock at prices and conditions unavailable to the common man. Though he does not give himself the excessively grand salaries as do the Wall Street and industrial moguls, he’s got his hand in the privileged pie as deeply as they do. Now if he were to just purchase the common stock, perhaps he would enter the world of the ordinary investor.
— Posted by charles
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26.
October 1st,
2008
3:15 pm
Sounds like a bailout for GE’s Financial arm.
— Posted by Gary
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27.
October 1st,
2008
3:17 pm
Will Mr. Buffet please add his name to the presidential ballot!!!
— Posted by yvonne
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28.
October 1st,
2008
3:18 pm
well i guess thats it.mr buffett has picked the bottom of the market for the rest of the world and from now on we´ll just shoot up . come on please ,stop this childish game,people are just not buying it anymore. the game is over and unless the central banks like federal reserve and the bank of england are not nationalized we´ll just get nowhere.
— Posted by ebbi britt
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29.
October 1st,
2008
3:19 pm
do whats nesessary
— Posted by aaron
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30.
October 1st,
2008
3:24 pm
So once again Mr. Buffett goes to the grocery store. Why does it seem that when he does, it’s always at a market where only the extremely wealthy are allowed shopping carts?
America, what a country!
— Posted by arty
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31.
October 1st,
2008
3:25 pm
Troublesome Mr Buffett did not author the bailout program- under Buffett terms passage would improve because of the terms. The Paulson plan gives too much away to Wall Street.
— Posted by Jim of Orlando
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32.
October 1st,
2008
3:25 pm
If Warren Buffet is buying, then I am buying too. He is the only person that I would trust in this kind of a market.
— Posted by Mike
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33.
October 1st,
2008
3:26 pm
I think what Buffet is doing is both very smart and also quite dishonest and underhanded. The rich get richer (on the backs of everyone else). Everything he says is quite disengenuous and false.
What he doesn’t say is that he’s cutting a great personal deal that no one else can get, not even close (not only in ‘preferred’ stock, but with a 10% divident, and open warrants for 5 years), and doing so for selfish (financial reasons) - of course, he’s a businessman.
However, his portrays himself as something above that; that he’s honest and straightforward in his business dealings… not!
Of course, part of the very obvious ‘quid pro quo’ is that GE gets to show off this to bolster their own credit rating, and the bet is their own stock price (common, of course), by attracting new investors (schmucks!); none of whom will get anything like this deal - and are only being ‘used’ to enrich the pockets of Buffet. He’s cleverly disguised this investment to do just that; it’s really just a clever scheme.
— Posted by Palo Alto - Paul
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34.
October 1st,
2008
3:27 pm
INVEST in your Children - The CEOs & Leaders of the Future!
Very good idea. More Millionaires & Billionaires of the wonderful USA and others of Global Markets around the world should consider this approach also.
/jw
— Posted by Jennifer Wood
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35.
October 1st,
2008
3:28 pm
The bigger they are the harder they will fall . . . does Warren now believe that he can forsake conventional market wisdom and catch a falling knife? Does he recall the teachings of BG - where is the margin of safety here? He is acting like a fool with a fist full of fifties in a whore house . . .
— Posted by CJ
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36.
October 1st,
2008
3:28 pm
Hey, Why don’t some of these billionaire guys give some of those billions to the rest of us via gifts to the government bailout or by paying more than their share of the tax burden.
Can’t we agree that sometimes it’s better to think of the common good than individual wealth.
And while we’re at it. Can’t the government get back money from the executives who got us into this mess in the first place. Recall the golden parachutes!
Oh and before I forget. Let’s tax the churches!
— Posted by Gary Martin
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37.
October 1st,
2008
3:29 pm
Why isn’t the government bailout of the banks using the same approach of preferred shares? Congress should consider the wisdom of Buffet’s method, which–among other things–would give the markets more stability without amply rewarding those who made unnecessary risks and faulty errors of judgement. Buffet’s method also gives the government and taxpayer a chance at recouping their investment, whereas the current plan will leave the government with a lot of bad debts and, worse still, less ability to the other economic problems heading our way.
— Posted by Jim
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38.
October 1st,
2008
3:31 pm
I just paid 23.87 a share last week. Can I get in on that deal to buy up to 3 billion at 22.25 a share?
Oh I forgot you have to have loads of money to screw the little guy….
Thanks Warren
— Posted by Ron
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39.
October 1st,
2008
3:34 pm
Can the average slob like me take advantage of these so-called “perpetual preferred” shares and buy them ourselves? No? What about the juicy warrants? No? My money not good enough? This is how Buffett makes his real money getting sweetheart deals like this (and Goldman, etc.), not buying common shares like the rest of us. The proposition that people can invest like Warren Buffett is a myth!
— Posted by jon
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40.
October 1st,
2008
3:35 pm
One of the underlying problems in American capitalism is a tax structure that allows the kind of wealth accumulation that in turn allows a single individual to determine the financial health of whole sectors of the economy. Rather than fawning on such men as Buffett and Gates, we should be seeking ways to make their species of “entrepreneur” extinct in exchange for a viable economy that serves the interests of the commonweal.
— Posted by Vincent Amato
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41.
October 1st,
2008
3:40 pm
SO THE WHITE KNIGHT BUFFETT COMES TO SAVE THE DAY AGAIN…YEAH @ 10% PER PREMIUM.
HE IS NO DIFFERENT , JUST SMARTER.
“You are a den of vipers.
I intend to rout you out and by the Eternal God I will rout you out.
If the people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system, there would be a revolution before morning.”
–Andrew Jackson, 1828
— Posted by Alan baron
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42.
October 1st,
2008
3:40 pm
go buffster! i bought a .99 cent double stacker today how’d i do??
— Posted by will edwards
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43.
October 1st,
2008
3:44 pm
Buffett is running exactly counter to the Bush bailout - he’s increasing the value of “treasure” stocks as opposed to the Paulson led US investment in increasing the value of “trash”.
Those wishing to park money alongside Mr. Buffett won’t receive the same sweetheart deal - but they won’t do badly either.
If you feel you must cash infuse the Street, wouldn’t you rather inject $700 B into “six sigma” equity than toxic mortgages? Duh.
— Posted by William Jolitz
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44.
October 1st,
2008
3:49 pm
Now Jeff Imelt should step down. He’s a failure.
— Posted by troy mason
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45.
October 1st,
2008
3:50 pm
Ge is a great company and Warren Buffett knows it. He isn’t put off by the constant negative comments by analysts.
— Posted by Lou
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46.
October 1st,
2008
3:51 pm
Why isn’t the adminstration following Warren Buffet’s example in structuring the “rescue” plan? The solution to the problem is to recapitalize the weak banks and brokerages, and Mr. Buffett has show how to accomplish this (first Goldman, Sachs, now GE) while making a nice profit in the process.
Mr. Buffett isn’t buying toxic assets, so why shoud the US taxpayer? Why don’t we as taxpayers drive the same type of bargain that the world’s best investor is getting?
— Posted by perplexed
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47.
October 1st,
2008
3:54 pm
This is asking to post a comment. Hmmm… What can one say to the richest man in America. Like E.F. Hutton - when Buffett speaks, everyone listens. When Buffett moves, everyone stands still and paves the way. I suppose if I had this kind of income and smarts, I would invest as he does. So, here’s to Warren Buffett’s smartness, smart moves, and deep pockets.
— Posted by Dee Dee in Sacramento
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48.
October 1st,
2008
3:58 pm
History Travels a Familiar Road - -
“The high spot of the day from a stock market viewpoint was the statement by John D. Rockefeller that there was no need to destroy values and that he and his son, John D. Rockefeller Jr., had been heavy buyers of stocks for investment in the last few days, and would continue to buy at present prices…
– New York Herald Tribune, October 31, 1929″
2008 is not the 1929, however, I do believe we are now experiencing the first phase of a multi year deflationary environment. This is not the same investment environment of the past 50 years. In this new environment cash becomes king and debt becomes toxic.
Look for; commodities, profit margins, employment, credit, and tax revenues to contract while policy makers grapple for answers not intuitively available.
Ultimately, I believe we end up regulating free market flows to the benefit of our society and institute solutions that stimulate economic growth from the ground up not the top down.
To the Dean of Wallstreet, I tip my hat and suggest you try and keep your cash powder dry as prices continue to get cheaper, and cheaper, and cheaper.
James Monachino
— Posted by James Monachino
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49.
October 1st,
2008
4:00 pm
How come we don’t have the same passion to bail out the earth in regard to global warming and extinction of species, to bail out Darfur, to bail out New Orleans after Katrina, to bail out the water crisis, to bail out our corrupt election system and control the states of Ohio and Florida? Why do we come to the aid of greedy capitalists who brought us NAFTA, debt to China, oil speculators, bankers and lenders taking advantage of people who can barely put food on their table, etc? We must stop permitting our government to force us into panic decisions when the we have seen the crisis coming. Take a step back with a deep breath and let reason return, if you can get reason to return. I wonder what reason will look like?
— Posted by Lowell Downey
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50.
October 1st,
2008
4:02 pm
Buffett is a long time democrat who really understands the
simple essence of a free market system, namely buy quality cheap and either hold it or sell high. This guy is unbelievable, back in the 90’s when everyone was jumping on the tech boom he stayed on the sidelines and was berated by financial analysts and shareholders alike, how little they knew and how much he knew.
— Posted by edward elliot
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51.
October 1st,
2008
4:05 pm
I hope he is wrong, I am a Software Manager in GE Health Care, and we are doing very bad. Buffet may loose his money !!
— Posted by Nasir Desai
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52.
October 1st,
2008
4:07 pm
I would like toinvest in G.E. as well, I am confident that GE will continue to be successful.
— Posted by Carolyn Barber
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53.
October 1st,
2008
4:12 pm
What a typically great move by Buffet. Rock solid.
— Posted by George
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54.
October 1st,
2008
4:17 pm
One man’s crisis is another man’s opportunity.
When the big firms go bankrupt, there will be someone to buy the real assets…at pennies on the dollar, of course. That is how capitalism works. We profit from other’s mistakes.
— Posted by Dan Arnold
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55.
October 1st,
2008
4:18 pm
Joe Nocera agreeing with Bill Ackman in December 2007:
Think about it: if a company needs a triple-A rating just to stay in business, that fact alone probably means it doesn’t deserve the rating. After all, if triple-A-rated General Electric got a downgrade, would it really affect its business? Not really. Companies that merit triple-A ratings are those that are impervious to small — or even medium-sized — bumps in the road
***
GE is impervious? Hmmm… Tell us again, Joe, how companies that need triple A ratings don’t deserve them? GE seems to think it needs a triple A. Paying quite a bit to keep it.
— Posted by Andrew
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56.
October 1st,
2008
4:18 pm
It’s easy to forecast the results when you’re part of the plan. Goldman Sachs’ and GE’s stock are sure to do quite nicely when the US subsidizes a banking monopoly, ramps up high-tech military spending and starts building nuclear plants to solve the energy “crisis.” Buffett should be added to the FBI probe of AIG and Lehman.
— Posted by K
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57.
October 1st,
2008
4:20 pm
Apparently in the Wall Street casino only the really high rollers get to play at the big tables, where an individual investor (albiet one with more money that many third world countries) gets a better deal than the US government!
Dayum!
— Posted by jonscott
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58.
October 1st,
2008
4:21 pm
for those who are jealous of the deal buffet got…Which is much better than buying GE in open market… don’t buy GE, but buy berkshire hathaway… he is happy to let you own a piece of the good deals he is crafting with GE and GS and he takes a low salary…
— Posted by mark
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59.
October 1st,
2008
4:26 pm
Why don’t existing GE shareholders get the opportunity to contribute the capital needed by the company they own? GE is raising $3 bil from Buffett and another $12 bil in a common stock offering. Why not just raise $15 bil in a rights offering to existing shareholders? That’s only 6% of the existing market cap of GE. Shouldn’t shareholders get a chance to provide the capital before the company dilutes them to get the capital from Buffett?
— Posted by Andrew
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60.
October 1st,
2008
4:30 pm
Buffett is making a big bet that the relief bill will pass. If it does not, he will get hosed.
— Posted by Sad Little Irir
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61.
October 1st,
2008
4:30 pm
Buffett does not loose!
— Posted by tr
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62.
October 1st,
2008
4:32 pm
GE is one of the largest names in power generation. As an electrical engineer, I can see why this is a great investment. GE will play a major role in the solution to what some are calling the next crisis we will face… Energy!
The strength of an economy is only limited by the amount of energy it can use.
Surf the web for 15 minutes and see which name appears to have most credit for the nuclear power generating facilities in the US.
— Posted by Bob
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63.
October 1st,
2008
4:34 pm
for all the buffet bashers out there who claim the rich keep on getting richer at the expense of the poor…buffet has given or will give virtually everything he makes to different foundations and charities…very little will go to his children. Thus, capitalism goes full circle.
— Posted by jbergdog
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64.
October 1st,
2008
4:35 pm
Paulson needs to get us taxpayers a nice deal like this from any bank accepting taxpayer dollars from the bailout fund.
— Posted by Ben
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65.
October 1st,
2008
4:36 pm
Reading these posts reminds me of George Burns’ comment that “all the people who know enough to be President are cutting hair or driving cabs.” Ditto, apparently, all the people who know when to buy GE.
Buffett has one of the world’s best records as a capital-allocator, and he’s getting 10% dividends for his large investment. Banks getting bailed out are being criticized by serious economists for simply moving on, instead of getting busy and raising additional capital, while posters here are grumbling about GE doing exactly that. Huh?
“The time to buy land is when there’s blood in the streets,” quoth Benjamin Disraeli.
— Posted by Geronimo
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66.
October 1st,
2008
4:40 pm
Good move !
— Posted by El Capital
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67.
October 1st,
2008
4:41 pm
Buffett is smart. He is investing for the future. Imagine this, he will be making more money than everybody else even after he stops breathing.
— Posted by Kishan
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68.
October 1st,
2008
4:47 pm
I’ve been watching GE’s stock price myself, was thinking about buying some GE common. But what Buffett got is a sweetheart deal that’s not available to me, and that is unkind to current and future GE common shareholders. I think GE thought they were buying Buffett’s good name by offering him these terms, but as a potential common shareholder I can’t say I’m pleased.
Guess the right way to own more GE is to buy more BRK. I already knew that :)
— Posted by A.B., MD
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69.
October 1st,
2008
4:50 pm
BOY!
R WE REALY IN TROUBLE?
Things are going to get a lot lot worse. The people at GE are sharks and they are trying to solidify confidence. Mr Buffet is a very astude invester what people should note is that the worst part of his gamble is a 10 year exit stradegy with a 10% interest compounded annually or a best case senario 10% intrest rate and an eventual huge capital stock appreciation. Mr Buffet well done however GE shame on you.
— Posted by Johnni
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70.
October 1st,
2008
4:50 pm
jeff has done little to increase shareholder value; and has presided over a deterioration of it. this is a well run company that does not seem to improve. buffett is getting a great deal; ten percent interest on preferred stock is always a good deal while your waiting for improvement. will it come.
— Posted by nocloudydays
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71.
October 1st,
2008
4:53 pm
I’ve long believed that in recent years Buffett’s investment returns reflect the added profit he is able to get because of his unique reputation and popular celebrity. This deal is yet more proof of this. The man has undoubted acumen and an unmatched record as an investor, but is not above using his stellar renown to extract the best terms for himself. In return for setting the Warren Buffett seal of approval on good companies with temporary financing problems such as Salomon Brothers, Goldman Sachs, General Electric and many others, he gets gets preferred rates of return and opportunities for capital gain that are unavailable to other investors and far in excess of market norms. Call it the Buffett Premium. Give the man credit, he’s using what he’s got for his own profit. Who else could swing a preferred share issue from GE on these spectacular terms? Let’s not pretend that Buffett will add any value to General Electric other than the confidence-inspiring cachet of his name. In return, GE - and its common shareholders - will pay through the nose for access to the Oracle of Omaha’s cash hoard.
— Posted by Donna Trump
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72.
October 1st,
2008
4:53 pm
GE Capital owns a subprime bank called WMC - that was a big mistake and is what got it into this mess. WMC was a leading subprime bank that very people knew about.
— Posted by I Know
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73.
October 1st,
2008
4:54 pm
As a retiree of GE, I’m ashamed to own their stock now due their political position especially with their NBC / MSNBC slanting and sucking up to the far left agenda! Immelt should resign immediately having a disastrous tenure as the CEO with disastrous performance. Not sure what Buffet sees in that stock. I suggest everyone should boycott their products for their political position.
— Posted by CJ
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74.
October 1st,
2008
4:59 pm
Buffet is buying Goldman Sach and GE. Everybody should do the same
— Posted by Vijay
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75.
October 1st,
2008
5:06 pm
I read where it says the Democrats started the whole mess in 1999 when they liberalized the lending policies of Fannie and Freddie. So you lend money to the masses many of whom have now forfeited their homes and autos and boats plus .This started the whole thing-euphoria ruled for many with no thought of our factories moving to other countries.There are many smart men in the US but even they can be run over in the name of greed by corruption in high places. Mr. Buffet sets a good example for the rable Howard H.
— Posted by Howard
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76.
October 1st,
2008
5:06 pm
Re: posting #47, from James Monachino:
I don’t think it is likely to be a widespread deflation, but on the contrary, an escalating inflation. Through-out hundreds of years, all over the world, governments have pepetually resorted to printing money when their debts became too high, and/or their taxing / borrowing ability couldn’t keep up with their spending.
There was a deflation during the Great Depression because the US govt did not expand the money supply, and these issues were less well-understood, and the US was much more self-contained / isolated economically. Wether we like it or not, we are now hugely “married” economically to China (and to a lesser extent, OPEC), and China’s costs are going up now, as they begin to have a rising middle class (their labor/housing is not as cheap as it was).
The impact will, if I am correct, in many ways be similar to what you are saying; our general standard of living will fall. Our government has been spending, without the honesty to pay for it now (ie, taxes); instead, the govt “puts it on the charge card.” That always feels great for a while, but eventually the bill collector shows up, and the party ends, painfully.
For what it may be worth, I recommend several things: stay away from adjustable rate mortgages and mortgages that have to be refinanced in five years, etc; don’t be a renter; and don’t vote for someone that is not honest enough to tax for what he/she wants to spend. And keep your fingers crossed. This is scary, scary stuff.
— Posted by Jeff in Austin
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77.
October 1st,
2008
5:07 pm
For all the negative complaints about Warren Buffet’s deal, you people should just quit your complaining. What do you expect? To be offered the same sweetheart deal? Disgruntled that you’re not getting that opportunity? Too bad for you! Maybe if you had a few billion dollars lying around, you’d be offered the same kind of deal. But you don’t have it, and G.E. is not interested in dealing with you because you’re too small.
And besides, Warren is taking on a calculated risk. He’s a prudent investor. In my opinion, it’s a win-win for him, even if G.E. and the financial markets go all to hell. Why? Because he’ll probably lose billions in the fallout anyway! He’s simply taking the same chance, but he’s getting a stronger investment position in the company.
And for those of you who think buying common stock of G.E. is a good idea, simply because Warren is buying into the company, you should think again. If G.E. goes under, Warren’s stake is much better protected that your common shares entitle you to.
— Posted by James
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78.
October 1st,
2008
5:08 pm
If all of you think that Mr. Buffett is doing this to “help out” the American public, I feel for you as you are completely ignorant of the capitalist heartbeat. Mr Buffett is swooning in and in his right keeping his own shareholders in mind …(remember, the typical American can never own even a share of Berkshire as it is now at a mere cost of $137,000 per share) he sees a opportunity to grow his own company. He’s a shark. He’s intelligent and a proven success. America is cracking into pieces and the vultures are honing in on anything they can get their hands on.
— Posted by Jen from Chicago
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79.
October 1st,
2008
5:10 pm
Buffett is investing because it is what Buffett does. This most succesful of all investors doesn’t need any more money for himself, To inform the posters who believe he is evil and out to benefit only himself, you may be ignorant that he has pledged most of his personal wealth to charity, and has stated his intention to leave very little (relatively) to his children–in the realm of a couple hundreds of thousands of dollars. Not much for one of the world’s wealthiest men.
In any case, the positive returns on his investment go to Berkshire Hathaway, his holding company. This is a public company whose shares are owned by investors across the country and the world. The benefit of Buffett’s (up to now) wise and timely investments accrues largely to them and to the companies he is investing in, not solely to himself as an individual.
— Posted by steve
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80.
October 1st,
2008
5:11 pm
Of primary concern to me is:
(1) The passing out of preferred stock and guaranteed dividends to the wealthiest of Americans while these same companies common stock outlook and ordinary dividends are dismal shucking it to the less wealthy investors
(2) Watching companies like Lehman go bankrupt, all common stockholders losing everything, but then Lehman selling off its assets for billions to again enriches preferred stockholders and company insiders.
(3) Few of these companies clearly reflecting their woes on their balance sheets so the common stockholder can take notice.
I say that preferred stockholders should be considered owners and if the company goes bankrupt their holdings go into the pot so common stockholders have a chance for a claim. Are preferred stockholders dollars greener?
This is dilution, dilution, the rich and established taking advantage and the established grabbing everything they can as the ship they wrecked sinks and whatever they can’t grab they throw to rich and golden vultures that issue stock at $100,000+ a share.
The common man can not invest in hedge funds or the fancy vehicles, but the common mans greenbacks will help finance their falter. Off with there heads!
— Posted by Jake the Snake
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81.
October 1st,
2008
5:12 pm
700 billion today. How much next week, next month? They don’t even know how their going to pay for it! How ironic! The subprimers didn’t know how they were going to pay for it either, but just like Washighton (or should I say Wallshigton) they dove right on in.
Wave goodbye to Democrocy and say “hello” to Socialism.
Hold on America, it’s just starting…
— Posted by Tom...
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82.
October 1st,
2008
5:13 pm
Ge has always been a bank in Disguise.
Jack Welsh has llured stakeholders, public, “smart” economists, managers and admirers by hidding a highly leverage Bank behind a historic GE’s Manufacturer’s face for too long!
While banks were making money, Jack was a genius. All other industries and Manfucturer’s were struggling, but GE was shinning… What a Manager!
Was him that really good? Or was its “banker” skills all the responsible?
— Posted by Naked King
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83.
October 1st,
2008
5:13 pm
Now FIRE Immelt!!
— Posted by bill
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84.
October 1st,
2008
5:14 pm
I agree completely, we should inject bluechips like goldman and GE with capital as Mr. Buffet has done. The man is not one of the richest in the world because he is stupid. He knows what he is doing and the US government is ignorant to think they know better. Mr. Buffets net worth is probably at least double that of all the members of congress combined! Congress should take a hint. Follow the man with the money and a track record to back it up!
— Posted by BAPH
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85.
October 1st,
2008
5:20 pm
When blood is running in the streets, rich old men who haven’t been seen in years will put on their suits and hobble down to the broker’s office. You only get a buying opportunity like this crisis once every few decades.
Sure you can speculate any time there’s a new idea (for example, solar power or ethanol), but getting into a stable wealth generator like banking at a steep discount is how the big money does it. When you’ve got tens of billions of dollars to invest there aren’t that many places to put it and this is about as good as it gets.
We may not be at the bottom yet, and don’t forget that Buffett can negotiate more favorable terms than the average citizen buying stock on the open market. Might be a better idea to buy BRK.B than GE for the next year or so.
— Posted by Marco
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86.
October 1st,
2008
5:23 pm
If you are looking for a reason for the delay in bailout bill,it doesn’t take a conspiracy theorist to see that there’s still probably money to be made, leaving the taxpayers with even less value after the carcasses have been picked clean.
— Posted by mj
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87.
October 1st,
2008
5:23 pm
Doubt Immelt all you want, but this is further proof that Immelt and GE have been unfairly targeted by analysts on Wall Street. While their thinking is sensible when seen as a generality (conglomerates are not focused and so should trade at a discount), one look at GE and one knows that this is a differently run conglomerate. It’s well run, and it’s got a lineup of executives that are the envy of everyone in the world.
I have been saying it for a while, and this is only further proof. GE is a solid company with a great management team.
— Posted by AJ
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88.
October 1st,
2008
5:28 pm
@Rama
It’s not quite that outrageous. A direct investment would have yielded him an interest payment of 5.4%. The right to purchase at $22.50/share allows him to participate in GE upside that he wouldn’t be able to benefit from with perpetual preferred shares.
The main advantage is that there’s floor below which his investment cannot go ($3 billion plus 10%). And he stands before common shareholders if GE is liquidated (and if that happens so help us God).
— Posted by RW
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89.
October 1st,
2008
5:30 pm
Nothing surprises me less than Warren Buffet stepping in to this purchase of GE stock ater his investment in Goldman Sachs last week. Warren Buffet is amodern day JP Morgan. He can’t pay off the countries debt but he can invest in companies that are in it for the long haul. GE will survive and prosper annd you can now expect then to lead the way in new energy saving products and quite possibly clean energy production to help solve Americas energy technology shortcomings. Don’t be surprised to see Bill Gates step up to the plate to help ease the investor tensions with some heavy investment as well. These two men can change the fortunes of a nation with their business savy and encouraging and timely investments that make them money and help our financial crisis.
tom mcmahon
tommic856@verizon.net
millis ma
— Posted by Tom McMahon
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90.
October 1st,
2008
5:33 pm
One overlooked investment ploy of Warren Buffet is that his investment portfolio is very heavy on dividend paying stocks or businesses such as insurance to keep a steady flow of income. Like most mutual fund investors I am limited to stock appreciation for most of my expectations of increased value. Something to think about when looking to invest long term …GE is a good company and will reap big rewards when they get more orders for Nuclear power plants and alternative energy products.
— Posted by Josh
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91.
October 1st,
2008
5:35 pm
Buffett is not keen on making bad investments and he just made another great one.
GE is a VERY closely monitored, VERY recently AAA-rated company with a stable of world-class diversified assets. That said, no one is immune to this recent horrible economic churn, but we shouldn’t all hitch our wagons to the hysteria surrounding companies with financial exposure- which GE seems even more vunerable to because of the unfair “black box” label assigned to its business unit aggregated accounting among the alleged Wall Street cognescenti.
— Posted by MP
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92.
October 1st,
2008
5:35 pm
Yeah, he’s also investing all over the place. This same week he invested a large sum in Chinese battery manufacturer BYD . . . so that they can enter the US market.
— Posted by jeremy burnich
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93.
October 1st,
2008
5:37 pm
This is a buy low and sell high. This man is a clear investor. But he could be saving our country from ruin. Lets hope the other country’s don’t want they’re moneys now. Like property and major operations. We wont even have a national park if we are not careful. Watch out for the UN.
— Posted by Guy Ruff
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94.
October 1st,
2008
5:38 pm
I read all the whiners here complaining that they can’t get as good a deal as Mr. Buffett on GE or GS shares, or on any other stocks he buys.
It only takes half a brain to figure out the stocks Mr. Buffett is likely to be interested in buying at any given point in time. Do the work that Mr. Buffett does, it’s just that easy. Oh, wait. Did I say WORK?
GE traded at $21.65 today, a lower price than Mr. Buffett paid. It wasn’t fools buying, the fools (and child posters) are here complaining.
— Posted by Andy Hain
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95.
October 1st,
2008
5:38 pm
I have read many of Mr. Buffetts’ books and seen many interviews.He seems like a very nice man and always wants to help other people.He has given many investors very good returns and has pledged most of his money to the Gates Foundation. By taking a step back we should all take a look at who we are investing in and who we are voting for. Maybe our country will grow to be a better place for our children and grandchildren.
— Posted by Tom A.
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96.
October 1st,
2008
5:42 pm
Maybe the other 399 on Forbes list should play follow the leader
— Posted by bennie brown
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97.
October 1st,
2008
5:43 pm
This is hard to figure…ask 10 economist and get 10 different answers. This is probably just the tip of the iceburg, as you know…90% is underwater!
— Posted by Russell
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98.
October 1st,
2008
5:46 pm
Capitalism, honey, relies on making money. If you believe in capitalism (and you must to invest in the stockmarket, sell a product, or draw a salary) you believe in your own potential for success on par with Gates and Buffett. They both started in 1 car garages. Bashing them because they worked hard and smart and made billions is ridiculous. Buffett didn’t always have 3 billion to invest or preferred stock. Attack his investment based on rational arguments. Defend in the same fashion. Petty jealousies poured out in an emotive and practically illiterate fashion are depressing as heck to read on a business blog. Kudos to the bloggers using their brains!
— Posted by Pauline Fusco
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99.
October 1st,
2008
5:48 pm
We can all participate in Buffet’s deal . .. all you need is a cool $140k for one share of Berkshire Hathaway and your in on the deal!
— Posted by Jim Sherry
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100.
October 1st,
2008
5:49 pm
I am almost 70 years old, and a bit handicapped, a bit simple minded, too, not stupid, just not savvy in high finance, how else would I have lost 40% of my little 100K retirement fund?. All I can say to the naysayers of this world is to remember the Serenity Prayer. To Mr. Buffett, I salute you sir, even if it seems like you’re a vulture as some of the bloggers here say, all I can think of is, at least it’s an American who’s doing the buying and owning an interest in our beleaguered companies, and not a Russian, a Chinese, Japanese, or any other nationality. If I only know you, I’d ask you to put my little $60K that’s left wherever you want to and know that I’ll sleep nights because it’s not going to get any smaller, and that it’s going to stay right here in America.
Oh, I read about where the bulk of your holdings are going to go if God forbid, you passed on. If I can survive these upheavals quite graciously, meaning I don’t starve or not pay my bills…you can bring my little nest egg there, too.
— Posted by JSA
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101.
October 1st,
2008
5:53 pm
Someone asked why they needed a bookrunner if it’s a straight up Buffett (BH)/GE deal. It’s not, they have a $12B common offering also and they’ll need to add bookrunners to float that.
— Posted by J Nechleba
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102.
October 1st,
2008
5:54 pm
Hey Liberals brought you the 40 hour work week, vacations and benefits. Financial Conservative Fringe brought you crazy financial instruments.
Warren is just going to clean it up the way it should have been all along. Warren dont dont crazy instruments of finance.
— Posted by james mullaney
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103.
October 1st,
2008
5:58 pm
As a taxpayer; I want prefered stock; 10% yield; and a chance to double down at todays price in 5 years!
— Posted by Ringoes_man
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104.
October 1st,
2008
6:04 pm
We read that there are a large number of billionaires in the world now. They could, and should, rescue the system that they have used (and/or abused) in order to become so wealthy. Warren Buffett is setting a worthy example—as he has often done in other circumstances.
— Posted by Nancy Porter-Steele
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105.
October 1st,
2008
6:05 pm
Just like he can get the “deal that nobody can” he might have his hands in the info that nobody has!!!! So i wouldnt criticize, instead we should thank that someone who we dont vote for has still some hope in this county! As I last checked it is his name as the wealthiest man, and he didnt get there by making the wrong deals!
— Posted by Luis
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106.
October 1st,
2008
6:07 pm
The more you buy, the more you save.
— Posted by Kevin
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107.
October 1st,
2008
6:11 pm
I hate it when people apply the “rich getting richer” sentiment to Warren Buffet. He is truly self-made, getting where he is by a modest lifestyle and an immense (self-created) talent for proper Due Diligence. This is a guy who sat at the feet of his guru and listened carefully, then applied the teachings over a lifetime. He had none of the family connections say, of Bill Gates, to help him along the way.
And Buffet is the first to admit that the rich should PAY MORE TAXES - this seems to be the point where all the other wealthy people stop paying attention to him.
Buffet has earned the right to do pretty much what he wants in my book. He’d be a great President, but his kind of talent is too big for the very stupid system we have for selecting a leader. Imagine him fielding trivial personal questions on one of the moronic morning shows. No, the Presidency would be a great step down for him. He expresses himself well enough with his careful and strategic deployment of dollars. And he’s got way more power (in a way) than the U.S. President right now.
— Posted by Bill
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108.
October 1st,
2008
6:15 pm
So many dumb comments. Let me clear some things up for you people:
1) The reason that Buffet gets this “special” opportunity that “ordinary investors” are not getting is that he can come up with 5 billion bucks at the drop of the hat. Know of any “ordinary investors” who can do that? I didn’t think so. In fact, there’s probably nobody else who could do that right now, or they would be doing it.
2) As a few commenters have rightly noted, the fact that GE is giving Buffet such favorable terms means that GE in general and GE Capital in particular are probably in trouble, and certainly in bigger trouble than GE would like to admit publicly. This is nothing like a sure bet for Buffet, and is certainly not a sweetheart deal. Buffet is taking a huge risk on a company that is in trouble right now, and is betting billions that he is right.
3) There is no way that the current bailout plan could include an option for the government to buy “preferred stock.” Preferred stock can only be issued by companies that are still in decent shape, like Goldman and GE. The bailout is for companies that have failed or are literally on the verge of failing. Some of these companies (Fannie, Freddie, some would say AIG) the government has already taken over, both in terms of ownership and managerial control. This is far more “ownership” than one has with even a few billion dollars of preferred stock, and if these companies become profitable again, trust me, the government will take its cut, and it will probably be even more than owners of “preferred stock” would get.
4) The government absolutely must buy most of the “toxic” securities that many of these banks, failed and otherwise, are holding. This sucks for taxpayers and for any Americans hoping for big new spending programs, but if the government does not buy these assets and instill confidence in lenders, then the capital markets may grind to an absolute halt, which would be catastrophic. That absolutely cannot be allowed to happen. The government also has to be the one to settle these bad mortgages and other bad debts with debtors, to restructure the terms of these loans, and to get as much as they can. Why does the government have to do all this? Because it’s the only institution with the money, manpower, know-how, and authority to take on a task this big. And make no mistake, the task must be done.
5) The real test of our elected officials (and of the presidential candidates) is what they’ve learned from this crisis and how they plan to prevent the next crisis. The bailout is regrettable but necessary - there is no sense in wringing our hands over it. We need to begin a discussion of how to better inform our elected officials and the public on matters of finance, and ways to incentivize elected officials to act on systemic threats as they develop, and before they cause chaos.
— Posted by Jeff
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109.
October 1st,
2008
6:18 pm
What in the world is a single person doing with $3 billion in their pocket to begin with? Makes me want to throw up.
— Posted by Ian
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110.
October 1st,
2008
6:18 pm
As I said many times the GE story is one of fraud and deception and good PR. Its above market PE premium was always a mystery since financial institutions due to there cyclicality and opaqueness trade at a large discount. GE is not invincible just like AIG wasn’t. It doesn’t derserve a AAA rating anymore than AIG did. It GE Capital business is fraught with commercial real estate risk, credit card defaults and substantially higher funding costs. Its weakness is finally showing.GE however does have world class businesses in engines, turbines and healthcare but that is not enough to overcome the drag from appliances, lighting, media and finance. Buffet got a great deal, but he wouldn’t have invested a cent if it was a straight secondary offering of GE. He can replicate GE by buying United Technologies, Wells Fargo and Siemens and get all the good parts without the dead weight.
Look for GE to take large financial writedowns and use asset sales and tax and accounting chicanery to smooth earnings. GE has shown cracks in its armor. Lets hopr the armor doesn’t rust away.
— Posted by hammer
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111.
October 1st,
2008
6:24 pm
There are a lot of comments indicating that those making them think Buffett is buying for his own account. He is buying for his company which trades on the NY exchange as Berkshire Hathaway. Buy at least one share of the B stock and participate in his savvy instead of complaining.
— Posted by Peter Argentieri
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112.
October 1st,
2008
6:25 pm
helaine liebman - I moved the majority of my GE Interest Plus account to a FDIC insured account earlier this year. Although the returns are lower I needed the security.
— Posted by MrEdCT
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113.
October 1st,
2008
6:31 pm
Having read all the posts on this Buffet deal, I personally have to conclude I would not buy fresh GE shares if all I get is the current dividend, which is far below the 10 percent yield Buffie gets, plus a guaranteed 10 percent capital gain on top of that.
I would think that mutual funds that buy the common shares from the new offering are violating their fiduciary responsibiiity by buying into a company that gives insiders like Buffet a better deal than will the the investors of any fund that buys into it. If a lone investor buys shares directly he is free to violate his own fiduciary responsibility to himself.
I would not buy into investment banks because all the money ended up with the employees and the bank not only gave outside shareholders a pittance, but also didn’t put away reserves for a rainy day.
Buffet’s deal is a watered down investment bank deal. His Berskshire Hathaway a watered down version of the investment bankers who always took as much of the pot as they could get away from everyone else.
As for investing like Buffie, he made his big gains years ago to boost his average, and now I’ve read reports his current investing success is average because his investment pool is too big. Remember Magellan?
By the way I rankle at journalists who say Buffet did this or that. Technically, Berkshire Hathaway does it on behalf of all of its shareholders, the largest of whom is Buffie..
— Posted by Dan Cunningham
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114.
October 1st,
2008
6:36 pm
Even that I have certain concerns that bailout now will fix the problem completly (time is already running out badly and fast ) but the intervention of Mister Buffet was very helpfull.
I hope today an agreement in favour of Bailout is reached-I am quit sure this way mayor damage will can be avoided in short and middle term and markets can relax again.
Anyhow- and Europe also seems to understand the whole problem seems to be resolved with a new approach- this is not only about saving free market - it is mainly about saving democracy and free markets might understand that in favour of system protection and democracy the introduction of mayor financial oversight from governments is something important at least for a time period until the situation gets stabilize.
If State intervention will help on long term- there I have certain doubts-
The problem should be not only approach under economical or political few-
I am not an economist but some smart persons might over think if it might make since and if it would be wise to introduce Northern Hemisphere Super Valid- by saying putting euro, dollar, British pound and Canadian dollar together – or democratic super Valid and Adding Austrian dollar to- First it would be shaky but on long term I think the idea might work out better than making Euro dollars and it would avoid poorness around the globe- (similar ideas like that are on the red since a long time since 1998 ). A new Valid like that might be bag up partially with gold or water resources. An who knows may be “Supers” are at the end more loved than dollar and euro together.
Anyhow no matter where right now- there should be a strict overcontinetal financial control- a financial intelligence which serves First democracy and not money.
Today I read that Gold lately sharply raised up- on one hand happy for those who have it but on the other hand every gram gold means somehow also more contamination. So the thing is very ambivalent and I think the solution is somewhere in the middle.
But this is something for experts and as much valid Gold seems to become in this times - there should be international presure on gold mining companies to push working acording to modern forms of not contamination - we might have still plenty gold left to take out (80 percent are still under)- but we have only one planet to live on.
— Posted by christine schmidt
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115.
October 1st,
2008
6:37 pm
I liked the company so much, I bought it.
— Posted by Waren Buffet
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116.
October 1st,
2008
6:38 pm
I admire Mr. Warren Buffet. He knows how to get a good deal, be a good guy, and have a good times in the very bad times.
— Posted by NguyenNguyen
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117.
October 1st,
2008
6:39 pm
I’d been contemplating whether this was a good time to get a blue chip at a bargain basement price. When I first saw the headline, I thought maybe it was a signal that GE was a great investment. But the terms have changed my mind. Common stock will be diluted, and the terms of Buffet’s purchase seem like he’s getting all the profits, and as a common stock holder, I’d also be stuck holding the bag.
I’m not buying it.
— Posted by Richard
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118.
October 1st,
2008
6:46 pm
I work for GE and it is the worst company to work for. My computer crashed and it took over three weeks for our IT department to fix. I am a technical writer and they did not supply me with a loaner computer while mine was out being fixed. I literally could not work and when my computer came back I was chastised, a week later, for not finishing my backlog of work!!!!!!!!!!! GE has the worst management and I would NEVER waste my money by investing in a dying dinosaur.
— Posted by Mendy Spencer
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119.
October 1st,
2008
6:46 pm
Hooray for the United States of Buffett! All hail our new National Champion company!
— Posted by tep
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120.
October 1st,
2008
6:57 pm
GE is investing and operating overseas in many different countries. Emerging markets need the services that GE can provide, and they are already there working on it. GE has a base of opertions in China, they regularly make presenttions directly to governments and companies to show them how GE can improve their already growing businesses. Globalisation has been at hand for 2 years, but the face of it is changing. If your company is not prepared and moving to work in emerging markets, then it will become extinct.
I believe that GE is just covering their own backside. Perhaps things are not as rosy as they have been made out to be. If everyone talks badly, then there is no hope. Ensuring financial stability within the US will enable them to develop their emerging markets and overseas operations, which will ensure stability in the long run.
Warren Buffet is a great American. If only other Americans would do the same. A bailout package is garbage, business is business and sometimes you go bottom up.
— Posted by Matt
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121.
October 1st,
2008
7:02 pm
for those of you who think buffett may have made a poor decision here, this is why he’s who he is and you’re complaining about it on nytimes.
he doesn’t make short term investments, there’s a lot the average american investor (and shareholder for that matter) can learn from him - long term investments are the key - patience grasshopper…
— Posted by longterm mcmoney
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122.
October 1st,
2008
7:17 pm
For those commenting that Buffett should throw his name on the ballot it’s worth noting that he is listed among those Senator Obama draws upon for economic advice (and wisely so). Which you probably knew already…
According to wikipedia, Buffett has also endorsed Obama:
“Has endorsed Barack Obama for president[25] and intimated that John McCain’s views on social justice were so far from his own that McCain would need a “lobotomy” for Buffett to change his endorsement.”
So while Mr. Buffett won’t become President, one of the candidates is eager to receive his counsel on economic issues. Not a bad plan at all…
— Posted by Jon
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123.
October 1st,
2008
7:30 pm
Dear Nasir, I am GE worker, and we are doing pretty good… I am fully confident on GE. But I am in a non US GE business.
— Posted by Ksio
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124.
October 1st,
2008
7:34 pm
I saw Buffett speak at his last B-H Stockholders meeting. He only buys what he knows and he is buying now. Get a grip this is the time to buy stocks - our markets will rebound as they always have. I also have a mother-in-law who has blue chips stocks she has owned since the 1950’s that she has NEVER sold. You don’t even know what she is worth.
— Posted by JSM
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125.
October 1st,
2008
7:35 pm
Buffet is playing by his own clearly articulated rule here: “be greedy when everyone else is afraid and be afraid when everyone else is greedy.” Looks like he’s gotten himself quite a deal in a very solid company because of the credit panic.
— Posted by e
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126.
October 1st,
2008
7:36 pm
Mr. Rama of number 22 October first has it right. GE would have had no trouble to find a slew of small private investors to take that deal.
Most people would have taken this at 8 percent with those added incentives. All the rest, wow where do those people come out of the woodwork? I sure would like to meet Mr. Rama no matter where he is. edu@lipus.org would too. Thank you Sir.
— Posted by Attila Gf Matuschka
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127.
October 1st,
2008
7:37 pm
Dear Nasir,
Warren won’t lose (note the spelling) his money, but if someone catches your post you might lose your job. Companies don’t appreciate such unauthorized public comments, even if in fact you are stating the truth. For that matter companies don’t much like the truth. If you do lose your job then I hope you have some Loose (note the spelling) change in your pocket because jobs in the USA are going to become quite scarce. Good luck!
If the NYT is reading its own blogs, then they should consider Rama’s post above quite seriously as the basis for an article. Mr Buffet has done what he does best, but it is evident that something is amok at GE. Either Mr. Immelt (pronounced ‘I melt’ in some down-trodden circles, suggestive of meltdowns themselves) is prudent in accepting $3B from anywhere, since $3B is not often up for the taking, or he has a jerky knee. The flip side to considering the wisdom here is asking whether Mr. Buffet have provided an investor the same deal had he been sitting in Mr. Immelt’s uncomfortably hot seat?
Laissez-faire capitalism permits individual choices, but history and perspicacity of experience promulgate the understanding that the average man is not a wise man. Some guidance from those that govern might have been better applied: restraints of the amount of interst credit crad and banks can charge, more sensible requirements demanded of those who want these lines of credit, and limits to how extended public institutions can become.
America, you’ve overspent. The bigger house and preferred automobile have caught up to you. Intellectually we can blame the government (and the current one is used to blame and questioning) but we cannot save the individual blameless. The individual has blown his wad, and the wallet empty is only a reminder that the spend has been on homes built by illegal immigrants and products constructed by cheap foreign labour. It was good while it lasted, huh?
As for the sycophants who wish to elect gods and revere the financially successful (Yvonne et al above) are missing the point. Admiring investment wisdom is acceptable, but blind adoration begs the question of how this veneration benefits the system and the people, and enables the problem solving to begin?
You’re all in a big sticky mess, and you spilled it yourselves. We of other lands empathize with the common man and reflect on the bitter taste such wanton excess has left in our mouths. perhaps now, finally, the focus will shift to your own domestic issues of lousy health care, insufferable widespread poverty, and violence in the streets. Not to mention a loss of substantive culture and global awareness. You might want to dump that third car, disregard the large screen TV at Best Buy, and get a library card. Living a less consumptive life will increase your net value as much as trying to spend your way to it, a methodology which is swifter in result and saner in approach. Good luck to you.
— Posted by adam bronson
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128.
October 1st,
2008
7:39 pm
The American ppl should be FURIOUS.
Yet another example of super rich people getting richer by cutting a privileged deal.
Why doesn’t GE offer the same sweet deal to the public?
Using Black Scholes, the warrants are worth $9, an instant 40% gain!
Totally not fair and an injustice to the American middle class.
— Posted by PL
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129.
October 1st,
2008
7:46 pm
This is a clear cut case of the filthy rich becoming even richer while the working class lose their jobs,homes,health & families.I’m so sick & tired of people sucking up to Buffet like he’s some kind of genius. This is all about a rich man becoming richer and being able to have bragging rights. His 2 investments in GE & GS aren’t the measure of a great investor who is smart enough to buy world class companys on the cheap, it is a true measure of a man taking advantage of a financial calamity at the expense of the working man & woman. Is anyone naive enough to think that Buffet gives a rats tail about all the poor schmucks & schmuckettes who will be living in the street eating out of garbage cans the rest of their life? And I don’t want to hear about the $ he gave gates for his charity, why doesn’t buffet put that $ into building homless shelters, feeding the hungry in our country..after all he’s built his worth on the back of american workers, the least he can do is pay for our funeral instead of dancing on our graves. what a great man.
— Posted by Bill Ballsman
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130.
October 1st,
2008
7:46 pm
Listen carefully everyone. If you go two steps near this stock Warren is going to get a big payday to make up for anything he’s lost these last few months in this terrible market and YOU will end up getting very very poor off of pure stupidity. See this for what it is and step back, two steps forward will make you poor three steps back ward will keep you out of trouble. Don’t be mad a Warren, he’s just doing what he has to do to stay wealthy, but don’t be a sucker and let him and GE’s leader stay wealthy off of your stupidity. Hopefully this warning hasn’t come too late. Remember three steps back and keep your hands in your pockets as Warren passes through.
— Posted by CYH
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131.
October 1st,
2008
7:48 pm
If Mr Buffet can do it, why can;t Mr. Paulson?
— Posted by Norman Jones
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132.
October 1st,
2008
7:52 pm
Hats off to Buffy! We go through this same wringer every decade or so (S&L crisis, Latin American debt bubble, Long Term Capital Management) and the formula is pathetically transparant: Quiet, complex legislation passes Congress as a result of money paid by interested parties in the financial industry to interested legislators of both parties. As a result, new hybrid industries, or derivatives, or investment vehicles are born and tons of money is made and then quietly removed from the system. One day people wake up and find that what they thought was worth something is actually worth nothing, everyone runs around in circles pointing fingers, and eventually the Feds (often the same legislators who allowed it to happen in the first place) get together and pay for it with the people’s money, and everyone swears we will get the bastards when the dust settles. But when it does, everyone is at the movies or too busy consuming to care much, and the bastards who took the money are gone or running for Congress themselves or endowing museums and gymnasiums or busy setting up the next swindle. It never ends. And the press is worse than useless. The game takes place on the floor right above them, and although they can hear the corks popping and see the bodies being tossed out the windows, they are too naive or uninformed to have a clue about what has really gone down. C’est la vie say the Old Folks. “Think I’ll jes get me some jingly,” says Buffet.
— Posted by Gus
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133.
October 1st,
2008
7:57 pm
Bring back Jack Welch. I own one thousand shares of GE common stock but I am not given the opportunity to buy preferred shares paying a ten (10) per cent dividend.
Where is the SEC? Isn’t it supposed to protect stockholders? Bring back Jack Welch!
— Posted by Martin
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134.
October 1st,
2008
7:58 pm
I think it should also be noted that while the deal is for Berkshire Hathaway which means tons more people are getting rich off of this deal outside of Warren Buffet, the man himself has already pledged to give away almost his entire fortune to charities when he passes on:
http://tinyurl.com/k5veb
So stop pretending like he’s an evil genius that needs to be burned at the stake.
— Posted by David Ronnie
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135.
October 1st,
2008
8:09 pm
since the great move ,from buffett has been made,i wonder how long should todays stock take to double?
— Posted by robert trabue
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136.
October 1st,
2008
8:25 pm
Don’t dis Buffett for making money, he’s giving virtually all of it away to the Gates Foundation for many worthwhile causes that the governments around the world don’t sufficiently support.
— Posted by agb
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137.
October 1st,
2008
8:26 pm
Buy Low - Sell High I’m all for it! GE will come through this crisis.
— Posted by Gary M. Christensen
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138.
October 1st,
2008
8:50 pm
If you think it is just getting scary, you haven’t been paying attention. I’m not trying to be cute, but there are many problems. All have been clear for some time like the real estate bubble.
The one I’m most worried about is the excessive risk taken on by both financial institutions and operating companies by the issuance and insuring of non-regulated securities such as deriatives. They are valued by an academic algorithum and shown on balance sheet. When these securities matured in a normal economic environment, they clear with no financial impact. Valuation is not of critical importance. However, in the current economic environment with bankrupt counterparties, they can be sold or redeemed for $ 0. Because of the size of the market, derivatives are potentially much more damaging to our current economy than mortgage backed securities.
It is very significant that GE and Goldman are both going to Buffett for financing. They are both best of breed companies and are financially more astute than any other two companies I know.
Neither company’s financials clearly show their derivative exposure. If they did, the risk would be known and the dimensions of their problem would be known and reflected in their stock price.
Since they don’t, it seems to me that GE’s senior management has realized that the value they carry on their balance sheet is wrong. By a lot.
It is very informative that they have found their best option this downturn is to issue stock to Buffett. Given the odious terms Buffett has extracted and given that they need $ 12 billion or more, it seems to me that they are expecting a significant downturn. I also beleive they can’t sell assets for a reasonable amount and they don’t think their operations can generate the needed cash.
Buffett’s money is very expensive so my conclusion is that it is possible they are preparing for a severe economic downturn. The money is too expensive for long-term investment, so the $ 12 billion is probably being gathered to cover derivative losses while trying to maintaing their AAA rating.
— Posted by BruceB
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139.
October 1st,
2008
8:59 pm
“Abra cadaver..!!”
— Posted by Raymond Franzini
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140.
October 1st,
2008
9:12 pm
GE and Goldmand Sachs appear a good deal a price hi bought.
Thanks any way Warren.
Stefano
— Posted by Stefano Federici
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141.
October 1st,
2008
9:52 pm
Masters of the Universe playing games as usual. How removed and powerful they are. Your job, your home, your family life are collecteral damage in a Titanic round of monopoly.
— Posted by Jackie
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142.
October 1st,
2008
9:59 pm
The socialists are coming! The socialists are coming! This time they’re driving Bentley’s and wearing pinstripe suits! Some of them are even wearing capitalist masks! It’s hard to recognize the programs without the players.
— Posted by Vir Oscuro
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143.
October 1st,
2008
10:03 pm
Buffett has a great track record so the fact that he’s doing this on the one hand gives me some confidence in GE-but that he is doing it makes me wonder about the true state of the company.
The deeper question is how can Immelt remain as CEO!!!!!
For going on 8 years he has mismanaged this once great company-and returned very little to the shareholders. This old conglomerate model is not working-what will it take for them to realize it? GE should spin off NBC, get rid of financials when it can-and be the industrial company it’s supposed to be.
IMMELT must go.
— Posted by Labienus
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144.
October 1st,
2008
10:04 pm
This may just be proof that the cash logjam is for real. Not that I wanted a bailout or anything….
— Posted by Frank, Philadelphia
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145.
October 1st,
2008
10:52 pm
buffet’s been right time and again.
in 2003 he bemoaned derivatives as weapons of financial mass destruction.
people scoffed at him then. those people are nowhere to be found, hiding away from being accounted for this casino culture and disaster.
— Posted by theo
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146.
October 1st,
2008
10:55 pm
W.B. he brings good things to life!
— Posted by williambanzai7
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147.
October 1st,
2008
11:42 pm
I’ve often said it before that Buffets success isn’t some much because he’s an investment Genius (though he is very smart), he’s just the smartest guy in the room. A case of in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. Unlike pretty much everyone else, he knows that getting a return of 13% every year is better than a return of 16% 4 years out of every 5, with a 20% risk in the 5th year of loosing everything. He’s rational, thats all he ever was and it’s the reason why he’s exulted every few years as the rest of the financial market has a nervous breakdown when their childish behaviour comes back to bite them. Engineers don’t pretend that a bridge will not collapse because they’ve built it with straw and tar in the winter. A good engineer knows that conditions change and building for all seasons is the way to go.
Buffet is a capitalist that all the free marketer people talk about when they say that rational capitalism is good for the economy(at the same time that they often talk about how he’s “loosing his touch”). A land of buffets would be a Randian paradise, but the fact is that 95%+ of the investment community gets drawn to the biggest short term profits, not realising that long term profits are just short term profits that kept going year after year.
My analogy for this entire situation is like Taxi drivers demanding that they get the speed limit raised for them because they have fewer car crashes when they drive(which is true). Most of the drivers started driving at twice the speed of normal motorists. They got cocky and kept passing Mr Buffet who’s still driving at the normal speed limit(and still getting into far fewer crashes than every other normal speed motorist). After a few years though, they all started crashing and realised that the reason he drives at the old speed limit was because that is the speed where he has the most control over his taxi. He still gets people there pretty fast, a little slower than the rest, but he doesn’t crash his taxi and kill his passengers every few years.
— Posted by Peter Hillier
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148.
October 1st,
2008
11:49 pm
Thankyou to the US taxpayers who are about to be beguiled into rescuing the money people(mostly men who have a lust for greed) under the auspices of saving the global capitalist system. Interesting that Warren Buffett helps out by ensuring that he gets special conditions by putting his money into the system. Meanwhile, the US Taxpayers allow a group of mostly older politicians to pass acts that will hold them to ransom for many years to come.
Maybe the politicians and US taxpayers should look to what Sweden did in the 90’s to rescue their monetary system by using tax payers’ money BUT recouping moneys to repay them for their support by setting out “Warren Buffett type conditions”!
— Posted by Geoff Aitch
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149.
October 2nd,
2008
12:27 am
This all started way back in the mid sixties when Prez Johnson said we could afford both “guns & butter”, i.e., the war in Vietnam & “The Great Society” welfare state. In fact, that is when Fannie Mae was privatized, so it would not count as a liability on the US balance sheet.
Almost 50 years later we have another combat misadventure by a cowboy president bankrupting the nation, and this time foreign nations are not going to be so forgiving while their dollar denominated holdings plummet towards zero.
— Posted by Jim Denney
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150.
October 2nd,
2008
2:36 am
GE Money have a huge amount invested over here in the U.K. in sub-prime mortgages, poor people paying over 10% + interest, a lot of GE Money houses are being repossessed because of their high exit fees and punitive interest rates, house prices are falling like stones here and GE are holding a lot of collapsing assets, Warren knows something, these guys always do, they change direction quickly because they control the markets, we will never be so quick to react. I hope I am not becoming paranoid.
— Posted by Dennis De Menace
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151.
October 2nd,
2008
5:15 am
To #17, #36 and #45:
Paulson’s bailout plan focuses on saddling the government - and the taxpayer - with the toxic assets because, from an ideological point of view, it’s unpalatable in the US of A for a government to own a part of a private enterprise: it would reek of “socialism”, “communism” or “planned economy”.
The obvisouly more acceptable solution - at least from the US Congress point of view who are likely to approve Paulson’s plan - is to socialize only the losses by taking over the toxic assets, while the banks’ profits remain privatized.
The US Congress would be well-inspired to take a leaf from the European governments’ books, which, when they are forced to use taxpayer money to rescue a troubled financial institution, demand that the government be allocated preferred shares in exchange, thus taking ownership of part of the company.
Such a solution has several advantages:
- By diluting the shares of the existing shareholders, it punishes them for their failure in properly governing the company and supervising its executives.
- The preferred shares allow the state to capture some of the upside of the bank’s stock price, whilst Paulson’s plan to buy only the toxic assets the bank doesn’t want to keep on its balance sheet is likely to leave the state mainly saddled with future losses.
- The price at which Paulson would buy these toxic assets is quite non-transparent, as there doesn’t exist an effective market for such securities. On the other hand, there exists a market price for the banks’ shares, based on which the value of an injection of capital can be reasonably negotiated - just like Warren Buffett does when proviidng capital to Goldman Sachs or GE. Letting the market derive the supposed overall value of a bank seems a much better approach than having the US Treasury try to guess the value of an excised part of the bank’s portfolio.
- Forcing the private sector - i.e. the banks who hold these toxic assets - to find ways to realize the best value possible from their damaged portfolio is likely to lead to better financial returns than having a government agency trying to do the same.
— Posted by Nicholas Lang
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152.
October 2nd,
2008
6:17 am
We have been discussing in My Investors place that Warren Buffett might be following in the footsteps of his teacher Ben Graham who bought too early in the 1930s and was down for almost 10 years..I believe he is making the same mistake… between this and Goldman… he has made a substantial investment in what he called several weeks ago… “economic Peal Harbor”… Some members of My Investors Place gave some reasons that he is correct in his thinking….. but I have not agreed with any of them yet..I would like to hear opinions to the contrary that he is making a correct investment…if you think he is making a correct decision.. please let me and others know…
— Posted by Andrew Abraham
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153.
October 2nd,
2008
8:10 am
I am intrigued when a man of the stature of Warren Buffett puts his money into the heart of the American economy. If all those other people who profited from the good times were to follow his example and stop investing in derivatives and hard to understand, even though I understood, instruments; we would fuel the American economy with the needed capital to return us to our roots: innovation, manufacturing and global leadership.
To those who say throw away the old and invest in the new, I think they are misguided and do not appreciate the value of history.
One company that I have always respected is 500 years old. Their mission “Harness the Wind”; they started out making sails, today they design and build wind turbines.
History and maturity is what America needs not Dot Bombs based on funny ideas that get values on weird dynamics and then disappear because the neat idea does not have the strength to survive the test of time. I
I also believe that small business and new businesses part of the fuel of our economy. We should be invested in these SMEs, as long as we make sure they understand how to also turn their ideas into US not China … , manufactured products. Outsource what helps others grow in source that which helps to build our economist strength and enhances our global position.
— Posted by Philip Andreae
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154.
October 2nd,
2008
9:02 am
If GE’s financial business is struggling, does this mean we probably shouldn’t believe most of what we are hearing about the financial “crisis” from NBC News, MSNBC, and CNBC? Maybe it’s all propaganda to help get the free money flowing from the US Treasury to keep GE’s stock price up. If Buffett made this move so that the GE networks might start being a little more objective, all I can say is, thanks, Warren.
— Posted by Tim Lowell
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155.
October 2nd,
2008
10:54 am
Buffett, a man I admire tremendously, is captive to the law of large numbers. His imprisonment is causing him to make investments that are much, much riskier than is generally recognized…and the public at the moment is sopping it up because of their fanatical, faith based adherence to the man.
With something like $40-50 billion in cash on hand and an astronomical market capitalization, Buffett often speaks of needing to land “big fish” in order to move the needle for his shareholders. He and his partner, Charlie Munger, regularly caution investors to expect from Berkshire returns on the order of 7%, market returns, explicitly recognizing the predicament the firm is in.
Well, there are few fish bigger than GE. Goldman is no lake perch either. So here we are.
In both instances Buffett gets 10% current on the perpetual preferred he has purchased, which beats the 7% Buffett/Munger have directed his shareholders (me included, by the way) to expect. He also gets a security senior to the common equity, and warrants on common which have value if all goes well. This is a decent investment for Berkshire, considering the box it is in. But there are meaningful risks here.
Both GE and GS are creatures of the capital markets. Both hold assets that are declining in value and illiquid. Neither of these attributes are desireable at the current moment. Furthermore, there is the distinct possibility that GE gets downgraded, increasing its borrowing cost. Of course, there is also the possibility that GE spin out its Capital Services business to insulate its industrial businesses…time will tell.
But what’s really interesting to me are Buffett’s comments that he would not have pursued these investments if he thought that the Treasury bailout would fail. Essentially, Buffett is anticipating that a new partner with a much bigger balance sheet than his will support/prop-up these entities and, by acting aggressively now, is front running the expected bailout. This is, arguably, a shrewd move but one that has left a faint bile-like taste in my mouth. For a man who has contributed so much to business and investment knowledge and whose intent has always appeared to me to be admirable, this just seemed a little too opportunistic. At the end of the day, Buffett will in part profit off the American public…perhaps the biggest patsy in this game of poker he just engaged.
I admire Buffett, but I’m a bit dismayed. Are we, perhaps unknowingly, Buffett’s biggest catch? The possibility that the American public comes to perceive itself as having been caught by Buffett and Berkshire is the biggest risk Buffett is accepting here.
— Posted by Glenn Evans
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156.
October 2nd,
2008
11:10 am
I think lot of hardselling would have happened for Buffet to buy this. I will not touch this stock by a barge pole for next 5 years atleast. My reason is this their capital is 115Bn goodwill & intangible 90BN & CTA account is $10BN.So in reality the actual capital is at $15BN & imagine their borrowing in the region of 510Bn as per 2007 annual report. When Jack gave this company to Jeff the borrowing was 200BN , earnings 12.7Bn & actual capital was 27BN.So in the last 8 years when there was a unprecedented boom not much was made by GE. Assuming they make 22.5 BN dollars consistently & pay off $10BN as dividend the book actually can go to $75BN & if it gets valued at 6 times may be we are talking off 450Bn which means a 60-70% appreciation from current stock price of $ 25dollars. This is fraught with too much risk & god help Jeff.As they already operate at high end of margins & their cost base is the best the room to maneouver is difficult.I looked at all Dow Companies balance sheet the one which looks attractive are the oil companies like exxon mobil, American Express,JP morgan.Companies with less goodwill & intangibles & with less borrowings are one which should be preferred.If somebody says GE is bluest of Bluechip i would say not anymore. Only jack welsh has capability to run America & also to run GE. He is the best.GE board without delay should summon him & ask him to take charge now.
— Posted by charlie
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157.
October 2nd,
2008
11:34 am
On the one hand it is promising that the savvy Buffett thinks enough of GE to invest in it (on his terms), on the other it does not speak well for the real state of the company that it needs Buffett and the other infusions of cash.
But it all leads to the conclusion that Immelt has been a failure as CEO. For going on 8 years shareholders have been disappointed by this man, and it is baffling why he isn’t gone. The giant conglomerate model does not work. GE should spin off NBC, get out of the financial businesses, when it can, and reuturn to being the great industrial company it can be.
NO FUTURE FOR THIS COMPANY WITH IMMELT-WE NEED A CHANGE!!
— Posted by Marshall
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158.
October 2nd,
2008
11:45 am
Many commentors see the Buffet capital infusion as evidence of deeper problems at G.E. Rather, G.E. depends on Money Market funds for its short term capital to a huge extent. Connect the dots. Money market funds are in crisis with Investors large and small withdrawing. Virtually no short term money is available. Without working capital even the best corporations aare out of business. Cost of capital is skyrocketing and buffet’s money is a cheap alternative to inxolvency.
— Posted by Paul Johnson
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159.
October 2nd,
2008
12:36 pm
Buffett is doing what he is famous for — buying quality companies at low prices and, in this case, with significant sweeteners enabled by a financial panic.
If you want to know his recommendations with regard to the financial bailout his recent interview with Charlie Rose was insightful. Bottom line, the $700 billon injection of capital is necessary to free up credit markets — but the government should pay *current market prices* for whatever ‘toxic’ securities they purchase — no more, no less. From there, the intervention should produce some salutary effects for both the market now and, eventually, taxpayers as well.
— Posted by cc
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160.
October 2nd,
2008
1:17 pm
Good idea, there mark.
Let me just go out there and buy me some Berkshire Hathaway.
Lessee here….hmm…..BRK-A one share is going to cost me $137,650 today!!!!!!
— Posted by T-
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161.
October 2nd,
2008
1:56 pm
How can the board tolerate Mr. Immelt? It was clear at the stockholders meeting in Kentucky a few years ago that he couldn’t even handle the meeting without using prison tactics. I suspect you have talent on board. Use it!!
— Posted by D Dot
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162.
October 2nd,
2008
2:31 pm
RE: Posting #76.— Posted by Jeff in Austin
“I don’t think it is likely to be a widespread deflation, but on the contrary, an escalating inflation.”
I agree with the possibility of a world wide inflationary scenario as suggested in your post. Time will determine which path we will all be thrown on.
However, I favor the Deflationary argument with it’s different fiscal remedies because we are experiencing:
* World wide over production which is resulting in contracting profit margins.
* Excess world labor force that will continue to place downward pressure on wages.
* Excessive debt which is now resulting increased bankruptcies and a demand for cash.
* De-Leveraging of financial Institutions which are draining credit and stunting organic growth of businesses and consumer purchases.
* Global Institutional Confidence Crisis which is impeding the flows of money world wide due to solvency questions regarding trading partners.
* CRB Cash Index broke trend significantly in July 2008.
* Imploding Real Estate markets that are declining and spreading to the commercial sector resulting in the continued erosion of a variety of fixed income instruments which have real estate assets embedded into their payout structure.
Finally, the Fed is injecting billions of dollars worth of money into the system but it isn’t getting absorbed and distributed. The velocity of money is slowing and the hording of cash is beginning to taking place at the Institutional and consumer level.
All these attributes are what occur during a World Wide deflationary slowdown. Deflation is a rare bird which very few people alive have ever experienced.
James Monachino
— Posted by James Monachino
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163.
October 2nd,
2008
6:15 pm
welcome to free market capitalism.
if Buffet can get good deals who are any of us to
denigrate him.
if you had money you could get the same deals
but you spent yours
on flat screens,indian casinos and trips to orlando.
it seems the ones that blame and bitch the most are the ones
who planned the least for potential crises as we are in.
you can thank “liberals” for the few protections in place
for the average “working stiff” cuz conservatives
would have had you put social security in the stock
market.
then YOU would be supporting your parents instead of all of us.
knee jerk reaction just make you a jerk
— Posted by dick bohanon
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164.
October 2nd,
2008
6:21 pm
Who was it that bailed the US out of 1929? Wasn’t it the guy yelling Tora, Tora, Tora at Pearl Harbor? In another way of thinking the 1929 problem was corrected temporarily only to show up again at a different time in a different guise. Hitler corrected the German problem and Paulson would like the same power if not more.
Mr Buffet, you also have limitation to your knowledge. I found that mathematics and the law doesn’t concern them very much, with a managerial style derived from the guy that made a horse a senator. Count your finger when you shake hands, if you find one missing then they’ll argue that you can’t count or have mental problem, or is that only for empoyees.
— Posted by nobrainer
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165.
October 2nd,
2008
6:58 pm
I think the big problem with GE is GE capitol, which probably was a great deal when they were financing an airline buying a bunch of GE jet engines at a few million a pop, or a Spanish utility buying a hydro-electric plant.
They buy relatively cheap materials, add a tremendous amound of added value in the form of engineering, manufacturing, and finally, that “GE” logo on the hood.
But in recent years they have become just another source of money for dubious purchases of all kinds of thing. They should have stuck with what they knew how to do.
SEO
— Posted by seo
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166.
October 3rd,
2008
10:27 am
Re: Posting # 172, by James Monachino
I don’t think the inflation will be worldwide; I believe it will occur in the US (and possibly elsewhere).
You are quite right that “inflation is a rare bird which few people alive have experienced.” This does indeed make it less likely to spring to mind as an imminent possibility, and makes detection of early signs perhaps more difficult.
Nonetheless, deflation is essentially a governmental choice. If the Fed cranks up the printing presses to a significant enough extent, there is a larger supply of dollars available for the existing supply of goods and services, and the dollar-per-unit amount for goods (ie, prices) goes up. It would be against the US govt’s interests to proceed in that direction, due to the heavy US debt, which would become more impossible to handle under a deflationary scenario, and would become less of a burden under an inflationary scenario.
Your point on “excessive debt” is an indicator for inflation, not deflation, to the extent it becomes overwhelming for one or more countries as a whole. Several hundred years of history all over the world have shown that, time and again.
I disagree that there is “an excess world labor force.” On the contrary, the supply and demand for labor in China (which has largely become the world’s manufacturing plant) is tightening, so that labor there is starting to cost more, not less. The decade-plus of offsets to inflationary pressures that the US has enjoyed from ever-decling costs of products made in China is starting to level out, and even see price increases. Likewise, even in the US, as the huge demographic bubble of the baby boom ages into its post-working years, the US labor force may well see shortages. There are wide-spread predictions already of looming shortages of, for example, govt workers in the US over the next decade.
Your point on “world wide over production” is hard to imagine, given the almost insatiable potential demand in forthcoming domestic consumption in China and India, where the largest populations on earth reside, and a historic shift to middle class status is well under way.
I have been wrong many times in the past, and may be so again here. I hope so, but I fear I am not. I appreciate the thoughtful points you have raised.
— Jeff
— Posted by Jeff in Austin
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